The CBT Dive

Episode 4: Fear of flying & processing grief

• Episode 4

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What is the connection between aerophobia and grieving the loss of a parent with whom you had a complicated relationship? On the surface, these things are seemingly unrelated. However, for my special celebrity guest Zoë Ligon who examines her experiences of panic while flying, we began to understand the panic as a trigger for past trauma and terror about returning to a time of compromised safety. We found some meaning in the airborne space between destinations (a kind of limbo) and began to conceptualize it as a unique site where contradictions can exist. That is, we can process the complex grief of a father who was both abusive and loving.

Note: Usually,  a phobia is met with a CBT tool that focuses on behaviour more than thoughts, such as an 'exposure hierarchy'. This episode demonstrates how a thought record might also be useful in such an instance.

SPECIAL GUEST:
Zoë Ligon (aka the “Dildo Duchess”) is a sex educator, writer, badass artist, and owner of the very cool and well-curated Spectrum Boutique--an online education-oriented sex toy store based out of Detroit: https://spectrumboutique.com
 
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LISTEN wherever you get podcasts! 
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REVIEW copies of completed thought records from each show at http://affectiveconsult.ca/the-cbt-dive.php
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Follow this vodcast on IG @thecbtdive
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish mystify what therapy can look like and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm so happy that you agreed to be on this podcast. Happily. And for our viewers who don't know you, although that's maybe not possible, I'm going to say a few words about you.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So Zoe Ligon is a Detroit based sex educator, journalist, entertainer and artist. She is the proprietor of the online educational sex toy emporium called Spectrum Boutique, where she has made it her life's work to blast away stigmas and misinformation that prevent us from having the amazing sex we all deserve. Zoe considers herself a peer educator. and enjoys teaching through public self-exploration, sharing personal experiences, and being radically transparent about mental health. For Zoe, sex education is more than just access to pleasure. It's a way to be a peacemaker in this world by helping people better understand themselves and others. The first book. Yeah, you're pretty awesome. Her first book, Carnal Knowledge, Sex Education You Didn't Get in School with Photos by Elizabeth Renstrom is available wherever books are sold. That's right. So, a warm welcome again. Thank you. What do you know about cognitive behavioral therapy, if anything?

SPEAKER_01:

I was a psych major, so I should know more than I actually know. But basically, it's just like a therapy style where you're trying to address a thing and rewire the way you're thinking about it. I could be completely wrong. No, no, that is a great

SPEAKER_03:

definition. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, cool. It wasn't a total waste of my time going to college. Cool. No, no, I'm glad you did that

SPEAKER_03:

degree. I'm sure it's very helpful. I'm just going to share my screen and throw up here what a thought record looks like yeah so I'm guessing you you haven't seen one of these before have you even though you've been to lots of therapy

SPEAKER_01:

yes I've been in therapy since middle school I am 29 now I actually have not seen one in this format it's I've done my share of therapy worksheets, but not this specifically.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so we're gonna work through a particular situation. And before today's call, we had identified, I broadly asked you, Can you name a situation that might bring up difficult feelings for you? And you were saying that after your dad died for about four years, you had trouble flying. And so when I think about the situation of flying, I wonder if we can make it a bit more specific. Is it when you're about to board an airplane? Is it when you book your ticket? Or is it when you first sat and you're about to take off? Like, when is it?

SPEAKER_01:

It's specifically the day before travel and also specifically while the plane is in motion. And if there's literally any sound being made other than white noise, any sound at all.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. When there are sounds during travel. flight.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And obviously turbulence, but usually with turbulence, there's also sounds. So.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

SPEAKER_03:

noisy up there. So now do you think the feelings are different the day before beer travel versus when you're in flight? Are there different feelings or different thoughts or is it all the same?

SPEAKER_01:

The day before, it's definitely the panic of the actual preparation and stress of just getting everything squared away. It's kind of synergizing with the knowledge that at some point on a flight, I will have a fight or flight, no pun intended. I will have... a panicky increased heart rate at some point on the flight and just the anticipation of that, like that sinking heart dropping feeling. Yes. It's almost worse the day before then. Cause it's like this like long day long prolonged dread. And I'm very fortunate to not be flying as much because of COVID. I've been on a plane twice since COVID began. And yeah, Yeah. I mean, even just returning to being on a plane, I used to fly like three times a month. So to do it so few times and, you know, it's usually it's for work most of the time. Yeah. Knowing that I don't really have any other option unless I want to. drive cross country, you know, or take a ship across the ocean. Like it feels like I'm forced to do this thing that makes me very uncomfortable for work, you know, or to see anybody I love.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. So before I jumped to the second column, cause you've already started naming feeling words, um, you, okay. So it seems like the day before there's a lot of anticipate, like anticipation and with that comes anxiety. Um, but And so then first I thought that the best situation to analyze might be when there are sounds during a flight. But then you said the anxiety is almost worse the day before because you anticipate having a flight or fight response. So which one should we zone in on day before or when you hear sounds during flight?

SPEAKER_01:

Let's do in flight because I would call that like very acute anxiety versus like. Yeah. Spread out throughout an entire day. It's more like of an instantaneous. I used to have panic attacks and I am now well medicated, but it is the closest I will get is the closest I will get to that feeling. I describe as like my blood is on fire. OK,

SPEAKER_03:

so part of this conversation that we have today might make you feel some of those sensations in your body. So let me bring it on and breathe through it. So let's name all of the feelings you experience when you're on a flight. There's some turbulence. You hear some sounds. We've got anxiety. We've got panic. There's a feeling of being forced. Is there what are some other feelings?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. similar to forced, but being very powerless, knowing that there's absolutely nothing in my control in that scenario. Definitely. I also have OCD and a lot of that will be like the desire to like check in on things and monitor things. So I will just be like paying hyper attention. Even if I'm reading a book, I can't read a book and then like, have all these sounds around me i'll be completely interrupted and usually i'll listen to music to block out sounds but recently i had this time where like nothing was downloaded or something and i was just like i had nothing to block it out so all my typical mechanisms were they weren't available no no yeah um but i guess it's also just like this feeling of like instantaneous death is right around the corner. A very horrific death, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, so fear. And when you say a horrific death, I think that really speaks to panic. So I've got anxiety, panic, forced, powerless, fear. Are there other words like sadness, loneliness, any of those?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And it's weird you bring up loneliness because I would say that the fear of loneliness doesn't directly relate to the fear of flying, but it's also the knowledge that like, especially on the departing trip, I'm going to be in a unstable environment where I still won't be in control. I'll be in a hotel or, you know, if I'm at a friend's house, that's even better, but it's still not, you know, if I've forgotten something, I'm fucked. So

SPEAKER_03:

there's also a sense of being unprepared. Is that right? Totally. Totally. Okay. And would you say there's a hint of sadness there or no? I'm reaching.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. I cry on planes. I do my best journaling on planes and I, I mean, I'm so skipping ahead, but writing, writing as I am in freak out mode also really. And if you're writing, you're

SPEAKER_03:

also like just, Like, are you kind of pensive or creative or are you writing your own eulogy? Like, what does it look like?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say like wistful, nostalgic, romantic, maybe like a bit self-pitying. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I got,

SPEAKER_03:

those were a lot of good words. So self-pity. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

wistful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Wistful and nostalgic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And romantic was also there. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

All right.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't even know what wistful means. It just sounds right. I guess it means like

SPEAKER_03:

a wistful. Sorry. No, no, no. That's great. We. Okay. So sorry. These are too many feelings. So we're

SPEAKER_01:

going to my entire life problem. Too many feelings. I have a lot.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. I want you to think about this moment when you're on a flight and you hear sounds. Okay. Okay. how would you rate your anxiety on a scale of one to 10, 10 being most intense?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, anxiety. Um, probably an eight or a nine, eight and a half. There you go.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And panic.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, Probably like a six or a seven because it's kind of like punctuating the anxiety more than. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Six or seven. I gave you a 6.5. I'm seeing where this is going.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm very specific.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And what about forced?

SPEAKER_01:

That's lower. Maybe like a three, four. Okay. Powerless. I'll give that a solid five.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, thank gosh. Okay. Fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Nine.

SPEAKER_03:

Loneliness.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like a three.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Unprepared.

SPEAKER_01:

That's like a two.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Sadness.

SPEAKER_01:

Six. All right. I'm getting better. See, I'm being more. You're doing amazing. Four.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Nostalgic.

SPEAKER_01:

Sex.

SPEAKER_03:

Wistful.

SPEAKER_01:

We should look up what wistful means. I like, I'm sure it is, you know, when it's like, I know this is the right word for But let me make sure I know the exact definition. Having or showing a feeling of

SPEAKER_03:

vague or regretful longing.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, that's exactly what I meant. So good. Vague or regretful longing. Five. Regretful longing.

SPEAKER_03:

Does that make sense? No, it does. It's like... Or vague longing. Should I say vague? Is that better?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it really, for me, is like adjacent to the self-pity and nostalgia, actually. So I'd say it's like a combo of those.

SPEAKER_03:

And romantic is where?

SPEAKER_01:

Six.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, lovely. All right, take

SPEAKER_01:

a deep breath in. Will I fall in love on this plane?

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I definitely do feel stressed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. No, I, I know. You know, in, in one cognitive theory is, is called misattribution of arousal. And one, like this kind of thing happens where, when our anxiety is really high, we might attribute it to something else. So your anxiety could be high about the flight. And then suddenly you're sitting next to a cute person and they say hello. And you're like, I should be marrying that. Why am I not marrying that person? Right? The anxiety gets attributed to how intensely your attraction is to them. Anyway, that's a side note. The next column is about what do you do when you hear sounds on the plane? So you're monitoring your behavior. You talked about the, and that, would it be okay if I wrote like you start, do you get a bit obsessive?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, for sure. I will look out of the window. And honestly, if I can see the ground, that helps a little bit. Usually turbulence means you're in clouds though. So that doesn't always work. I will look at the flight attendants to see if I can sense any amount of panic in their expression, which like, you know, sometimes the flight attendants also get freaked out and it sends my alarm, you know, or something else. There's an asshole passenger. You never know. I will turn my music up. or turn it off if i'm in like a checking mode um i if i have internet i will text my boyfriend or another friend of mine who's also understanding of the fear of flying um and just being like oh my god that's terrible like if like Do you see any storm? Oh, here's a good one. Before I will- You catastrophize. Yes, catastrophize. I'll check the weather. All across the flight path. I'll look at a departing and arriving airport weather. I'll look at the general areas we'll be flying through. And I'll also really be looking forward to, you know, when the pilot's just like, it looks like we've got a smooth flight plan for today. I'll just be like, fuck, thank God. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03:

yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You're not always right. But I wait for the report from the

SPEAKER_03:

pilot. No, sure. That's reassuring. I appreciate that. So you've got a lot. You've got a good list. of behaviors, things that you're very in touch with what it is you do. Well, let's cap it at that for now. Now I'm thinking, okay, Zoe's on a plane. There are sounds during the flight, some turbulence. She has a slew of feelings that begin with anxiety, with a hint of romance thrown in. There's vague longing. And I'm seeing all of your behaviors, which have to do about gauging safety, right? For the most part. And so what are you thinking while you're doing these behaviors or while you're feeling these things? Or when you just hear the sound or feel the turbulence, what do you automatically think about?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say it's first a feeling of like a black hole in between my like rib cage and belly button of just like this pit opening up. So it's this kind of like almost like thought free free fall. But then to put words to the thoughts when they do happen. Yes. Excuse me.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think about all media representations of plane crashes or like I think about real life plane crashes or it's kind of a mishmash of coping mechanisms of thinking about scary flights I've been on in the past and how everything was okay. But then also, you know, well, this time could be different. And It'll be like this counterbalance of like calming thoughts and panic thoughts, kind of like talking to each other almost. I'll think about, it actually really depends on my mood. If I'm feeling really low and depressed already and a lot of bad stuff is happening, sometimes that actually makes me kind of just like feel very resigned to the feeling and I almost feel more calm and able to just kind of like, like feel it wash over me um and if i'm feeling happy and excited i think about how i don't want to die um that's not to say that i am like fine with dying when i'm depressed but i think i'm just a little bit more like life is misery uh it's less of a dramatic change in my mood um

SPEAKER_03:

All right, I'm going to pause you for one second. So I want to go back to the image, media representations of plane crashes. When you've seen those, which part of that do you find most terrifying? The crash itself, the process of going down or the way, like I'm sure you've seen an episode of Lost or maybe you

SPEAKER_01:

haven't been able to. I was just going to say Lost. And it's so funny because when I was watching Lost, it was not, I had no trouble flying. The trouble flying began when I was 23 and I watched that in middle school and high school. But yeah, I definitely think about that scene in Lost where the entire back half of the plane just is ripped off. Thanks, J.J. Abrams. Thank you for that. I think about the Malaysian flight that went missing. Or was it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously that's like a real life example and a fictional example. I think a lot about how, I mean, a spoiler alert for Lost, but I think about how Charlie, the character Charlie is in the bathroom at the time and how being in the bathroom saves him because he was seated in the rear of the plane previously and

SPEAKER_02:

nobody,

SPEAKER_01:

so if he hadn't gone to the bathroom, he wouldn't have been saved. And I think about like, okay, maybe if I'm Yeah. Or maybe not relax your neck.

SPEAKER_03:

So when I... Okay, so we've got this image of the media representations of plane crashes. And of course, media includes TV, but also real life.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So in Lost, it's about a crash. In the Malaysia Airlines, you talk about the flight goes missing. You know, it's hard to know what happened, but we imagine... when a flight goes missing, it also at some point runs out of fuel and crashes, but it's missing likely because it's in an ocean. I mean, those are some of the assumptions we have, right? Yeah. So, and then you're talking about this guy who's in the bathroom and that saves him. So if I were to turn that into a thought that you might be having, it might be that, and tell me if this is correct, you're saying to yourself, I may not be sitting in the right place to maximize my safety.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which is, you know, a completely moot point because if a plane crashes, you're like, you're still in a plane crash. And, you know, I think I think about, oh, my God, what if the luggage falls out of the overhead compartments and squishes me? I think about that

SPEAKER_03:

also. OK, so I'm not OK. So I'm hearing the catastrophes. Those are those are big concerns you might have. I wonder if there's something here about individual responsibility for staying alive in a time of powerlessness, right? Because I may not be sitting in the right place to maximize my safety. So if I said to you, Zoe, what if a plane, something bad did happen on a plane and you survive and somebody else survived, but they were in better shape afterward because of where they were sitting, what would that say to you? Like, what would you say to yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it would almost be worse if I was in better shape because I'd feel guilty that like I was okay and someone else wasn't. So I wouldn't even want that.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Stay with me here. That's very good. So part of the thought process here, now this is almost subconscious. It's not on the surface, but you're also saying if something bad happens, I don't want to see other people suffer.

SPEAKER_01:

For sure. Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

because what happens to me, I feel like it's like if I die, well, then I won't be feeling anything. And I'm more afraid, like it's like the, I hope it's not a painful death for me and not a prolonged painful death and also not for anybody else. Yeah. And I will say that one thing that will without a doubt make me panic is if somebody else starts to panic. I'm pretty good about like being very internal about that because I know that if I do anything, it might freak somebody else out. So if other people are anxious, then it's very likely if I see people praying. I mean, I've certainly been in that. That is a real experience where people have been like wailing, praying, talking to each other through the anxiety that is like going to send me into a pit of hell.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, I guess that's kind of off topic.

SPEAKER_03:

No, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's useful. It's really painting a picture for me. Now I wonder if, okay, let's switch gears a little bit. So One of the things you do is journal, right? And that, if I'm not mistaken, the nostalgia, wistful feelings and the romantic feelings, those are tied up in the journaling. Is that right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or is there another image

SPEAKER_03:

you have that that's related to? No,

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, they're tied together in that, like, maybe the journaling doesn't cause it. But if I am feeling that way, I will likely journal, right? And I will probably only be journaling if I feel that way. If I'm in full panic, I probably will not be able to write.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure. So tell me about when you're, when you can access the headspace of nostalgia and a romance, where does your mind go? Either an image or something you think about? I

SPEAKER_01:

think I think about my, it's like these flights are like kind of like punctuations of life where, you know, I don't remember every single time I've traveled, but I've been on a plane throughout my entire life as a child, teenager, adult, and how it just makes me think about other trips. I've been on like both good and bad. I feel very isolated. So it's this kind of like, if I like, if there's nobody there who can do anything for me, unless I'm traveling with a friend, which certainly helps. But it's like, yeah, I don't have access to any person I love right now. And I'm completely on my own no matter what happens. I think that is. And then the romance just kind of comes from the like, oh, like I'm going somewhere new and like new experiences and like remembering old new experiences and that stuff.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And when you think about your old and new experiences, are they like... you can feel a romance with even a difficult history, right? And I wonder, what is it for you? Is this a time where you're building a narrative in your mind about the tough things you've been through, things you've survived, or are you thinking about the fun you've had as an avoidance strategy so you don't get anxious about flying?

SPEAKER_01:

Kind of like neither. I'm like thinking about people I missed, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And like wanting to reconnect with people that I miss.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And who do you tend to miss?

SPEAKER_01:

Honestly, people who were terrible for me, probably. People that I intentionally set boundaries with. And I think part of the reason is because like... when I've had a person who was very like toxically and invasively in my life and I'm on a plane, like they're probably messaging me at that point. I don't feel like I have anybody like that in my life right now, but I do feel like being alone and isolated makes it easier to talk to a person who is an unhealthy relationship.

SPEAKER_03:

So Yeah. Here's, here's an interesting thing. So one is like, when we talk about fear and sadness, I don't have access to anyone I love right now. And if I were to combine that or, or, or make the next thought, I miss people whom I set strong boundaries with. If I make that a sub thought, it's like, I don't have anyone I love right now, but I even miss the people whom I set strong boundaries, but there's like, um, To me, I'm hearing a kind of regret, like, oh, my gosh, like in this moment of loneliness, I even don't have these other people. They're obnoxious or maybe they weren't good for me, but they'd at least be here. Right. So just to build on that, tell me a bit about the second guessing, the self-doubt or the regret about creating boundaries. Like, is there a fear that you've alienated people or that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like that I'm secretly the asshole.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So if I were to turn that into a thought connected to this, I'm feeling lonely because I'm the asshole?

SPEAKER_01:

Or I've accidentally hurt people and maybe I don't even know how I've hurt people in the past. And maybe I'm not able to be objective about who I really am.

SPEAKER_03:

OK, so would it be accurate if I said I may be sorry, I might have my language. I might have hurt people whom I pushed away. Yeah. OK. And if that's true, Zoe, that maybe you hurt people who you then pushed away as though they weren't good for you. What does that say about you as a person or what's the consequence of that?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that oftentimes in conflicts with friends, lovers, whatever, sometimes it is just one person's doing, but oftentimes it's like both people's doing and the fact that there was something... causing a rift. And so the truth is that it's usually somewhere in between. I am not fully responsible, but I am also, was an active part of the way things went and perhaps things would have ended up that way no matter what, but you know, it takes two to tango. And I, I don't know. I think when stuff is, bad or wrong i'm i blame myself first and then i later will backpedal away from that be like well no actually all these other things were going on like this person gave me this red flag from the get-go or whatever um yeah

SPEAKER_03:

i okay so yeah from what you've said it's making me think a bit so you because you're in this heightened state of anxiety and the catastrophizing is so much about dying or having a painful death right and then we switch to loneliness and we think about people who aren't immediately next to you and the people you may have pushed away and then you start to think i might have hurt people whom i did push away and i'm wondering here if there's a thought or an idea happening, um, circulating in the back of your mind about not having the opportunity to, uh, reconcile, be accountable, something like that. Like there's a, there's like a, something about like the time is up. I won't get to say this. I

SPEAKER_01:

mean, that that's just like put a bow on it, but that definitely is like where the dad stuff comes in because, um, My dad and I were very close. You could say too close when he was alive. And since he has died, I have been very publicly honest about the ways in which he abused me. And it's definitely like I have reoccurring memories. dreams about him to this day. And it's kind of the idea of like, I'm speaking ill of the dead, even if the dead was my abuser. I still, it's a very dual relationship of he was a man I loved and also a person who really hurt me in some permanent ways. And I also flew with him a lot too. Yeah. And I really hated it because I hated sitting next to him. But also after my dad died, I just had to fly a ton back to back. And as I said, that's kind of when it all started. So, and I will say that the people who I've had to set strong boundaries with are people who are a bit too much like my dad, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so how are you doing right now?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I don't feel like I could cry, but I feel emotional.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I appreciate that. So you've taken us to kind of a new place, you know, in the beginning when you, in our previous call, you know, you just mentioned that there was this onset after your dad's death, right? And nothing we've talked about up until now has been really about him. So it seems to me like as we distill some of the automatic thoughts and we look under the surface, there's something there about what I would call unfinished business. And so the last thought I put down was all like there's a fear, like I'll die with unfinished business and the image of dad who was an abusive, but somebody you also loved. Yeah. And so. If it's unfinished business, what is it that you wish, like, excuse me, do you sometimes wish you could have said more to him or you could have resolved things?

SPEAKER_01:

I almost, I feel guilty that I am grateful to be free of his control. And I feel guilt over that relief that I am free.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. That's really, it's a complex thing to explore. Like when I think about that, I think that could actually be its own thought record that we maybe will come back to. So at the very least, do you think that, do you think when you're on a plane, you flew a lot with your dad, you said?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, up until adulthood, probably.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I'm just thinking more broadly about your fear of dying on this plane. What will you not get to do if you have an untimely death? What will the unfinished business in your life with other people look like? What's the implication of this?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I definitely think about like what. would my boyfriend think and feel, should I vanish? Um, and you know, as for my entire family and everybody in it, um, But then I guess I also think about how it wouldn't really matter, like how my life is quite small and unimportant in the grand scheme of things and how life would just keep going. And all that would not happen is that my life just wouldn't be lived.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. So you think about how people you leave behind will be bereaved, right?

SPEAKER_01:

But they'll be fine eventually.

SPEAKER_03:

The people I leave behind will be fine. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's

SPEAKER_03:

take a deep breath here, shall

SPEAKER_02:

we?

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So Zoe... In this thought record, you've actually tiptoed into some other complex territories, which is fine. But those are things we would spend more time unpacking in a different therapy setting, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I want to come back to the situation. You're on a plane. You hear sounds during a flight. Yeah. Which of these many, many thoughts do you think are central, most salient and driving? the bulk of these difficult feelings.

SPEAKER_01:

So which of these thoughts are like the most prominent?

SPEAKER_03:

Most prominent. That's a great way to say it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Probably I don't want a prolonged painful death for me or anyone else.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And so let's distill that a bit more. If they're like, What do you imagine would happen if there's a prolonged painful death? Like what does that mean for you? Or how do you picture yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

I, you know, it's definitely like body memories of like other painful things really like turn with the volume turned up all the way, kind of, I guess. Yeah. I think my body kind of like recreates this sensation. Like, like it's almost like these phantom painful sensations that I have actually experienced. It's getting collaged into an imaginary future one.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And those memories, the body memories come from, I'm imagining past abuse.

SPEAKER_01:

It's funny because like most of my abuse was like, emotional, sexual, and not being physically beaten. But like, this isn't exactly the same thing, but like what comes to mind is like, I have dreams about dying in a car crash, for instance. And like, I can like recall the feeling of like my face hitting the steering wheel in the dream as though it really happened to me. I had very vivid dreams sometimes. that feel really real and yes I can distinguish them from reality but like it's like these completely concocted pains because I actually I joke that you know like I've never even been like slapped by anybody you know outside of like kinky time all my wounds are emotional and sexual and But obviously I think like, you know, the body keeps the score and I carry all of that around with me every day. And I think I have a very high pain tolerance as a result, actually. So I think my imagination outweighs any actual physical pain I've ever felt in my life.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Okay. And so what, I'm kind of thinking about the dream now, because you've taken me to another place of where you're enduring pain. And it makes me wonder if there's like an, like, we're stepping away from thoughts that have to do with the sounds during the flight and, and going into like beliefs, perhaps you have about, you know, I'm somebody that will have to endure pain, or I'm somebody that will have to fight for myself, or I've experienced pain before and I'll have to experience pain again. Do any of those resonate?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I've experienced pain before and I will have to experience pain again. And that's also why I think if I am feeling particularly good, I'm like, well, I'm due for a bit of agony. I'm not allowed to feel this good. So why bring on the agony? I know it's right around the corner. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, and I'll experience pain, agony again, and my body memories will be heightened. So I bolded this one, but I actually wonder if, is this now the most salient one, the most prominent one?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would say so.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. Okay. Zoe, we are working hard here, just

SPEAKER_01:

so we're clear. Yeah, I'm like, geez, you're only halfway through the chart. I

SPEAKER_03:

know. I mean. I hate to tell you, you're a complicated client.

SPEAKER_01:

No, honestly, it's reassuring because like, that's what I think. But, you know, I'm like, oh, I guess everybody thinks they're a complicated client.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, OK, well, we'll take a pause here for a moment and I'll tell you a bit about why this might feel more complicated for you than other folks. So I think we started out with the situation. Right. That sounds rather mundane for a lot of people. Right. It's about a fear of flying. And from a cognitive behavioral perspective, usually we wouldn't think about the thoughts. We would just try to address the behavior to reduce the intensity. And you've done behavioral focus work before. That's why you have so many strategies. Right. Obsessive checking, looking out the window. So you have skills in that realm already.

SPEAKER_01:

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

But so. And so usually what we would say is, okay, you've got a fear of something. Let's do some exposure exercises, right? Because when you're in high anxiety and high panic, you can't always access rational thought. Right. But for you, I thought, let's do a thought record anyway, as opposed to an exposure hierarchy. One, because, you know, I'm not doing exposures on this podcast yet. That

SPEAKER_01:

might come later. You're not taking me on a plane yet.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. One

SPEAKER_01:

day we'll fly. No,

SPEAKER_03:

totally, totally. And the other part of this is that you set this context that it's connected to dad's death. And so I thought, OK, there's probably some beliefs or thoughts around that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So now. We started with the situation around flying, but because I know so much of it, you've already identified as irrational. I'm trying to understand the anxiety, but it took us some time to really understand the sadness, the loneliness, and even maybe the double edge of nostalgia and romance. You know, there's this bittersweet thing about leaving people with unfinished business. There's a relief. You talk about feelings of guilt and relief when somebody dies. And then you're thinking about what happens when I die. And it took us a while to get to this point where we're like, maybe this is connected to a larger belief that you'll never be free of pain. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Every day is pain.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you feel okay to continue or would you want to?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I'm fine. You're

SPEAKER_03:

okay?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Honestly, you know, this is some like Enneagram language, like the Enneagram number stuff. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03:

yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah, yeah. But I am a counterphobic six, which means that I intentionally put myself in stressful situations to prove that I can conquer them. And I really enjoy that. Thinking of myself that way, I don't like that I am that way, but I know that I'm a very like, well, let's just fucking dive into the shark infested waters and get this over with. Like, that's my entire personality.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, that makes a lot of sense. You know, to me, that says you're when it comes to your nervous system response, it's fight. And if we were doing a therapy session where. you know, I was seeing you on a regular basis, I probably would stop here and say, my friend, Zoe, we're going to continue the rest next time. So that's also, that's important for you to know and for the viewers to also know.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. You wouldn't make me power through if this was not a podcast. And I'm okay to continue.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Okay. Because we could also... I could, yeah, we could do it in different ways. Here we go. So now the next two columns, what we're going to do is we're going to evaluate your hot thought. The hot thought is the central, prominent, salient thought that drives a lot of the difficult feelings you listed in column two. That thought is I've experienced pain before and I'll experience pain or agony again. Before we move forward, would you want to alter that anyway? Because I know some of that was in my language. Is there anything you want to shift about that hot thought? No, actually, I think that's great. Okay. So what's some evidence from your life? Actually, I want to alter it. Do you think the pain is going to be like all experience pain or agony, but this time it'll be unbearable? Because there's this prolonged death thing that you talked about, the prolonged painful death.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because I know I'm able to handle intense things, but we all have our breaking points. And I feel certainly a plane crash would be catastrophic.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, you've projected your anxiety onto something where you wouldn't be able to power through. Yeah. Right. It's a lot, it's like, it's, it might seem like an irrational fear, but it's a very logical place to put your anxiety because it's the one place where you don't have control. And I imagine from what I'm getting, I'm getting a sense of you as somebody who, you know, has control over a lot of parts of your life. I don't know if that's true or not, but I imagine that's important for you.

SPEAKER_01:

I think so. Relative to, you know, I have my own business. So that alone for sure. Okay. So

SPEAKER_03:

we've got this hot thought. I've experienced pain before. And I'll experience pain or agony again, but this time I won't be able to handle it. It really comes down to this part, doesn't it? I'll experience pain and agony again, but this time I won't be able to handle it. Can you give me some evidence that supports this idea that you could experience a level of pain or agony that you won't be able to handle?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, definitely when my dad died, my life shut down. I'd say I was like, in mourning for like two or three years. And especially like, I don't have any recollection of the week after he died, for instance, like that is a blur to me. I was, it was like, I couldn't leave the house or do anything. The first thing I did was go grocery shopping and I had to have like, two friends come along with me to get groceries. So it was just like a full shutdown of every function. I just watched TV.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. So you were like kind of numb, almost completely listless. Like you couldn't do things that brought you joy or do even functional things. Your life shut down. So I think like that's a really important experience for us to put at the forefront. Like you've seen what can happen when you experience something that goes beyond your threshold. Are there any other experiences where you felt like you couldn't handle the pain and, you know, you were in a tough spot?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Coincidentally, an abusive relationship that was definitely reminding me of my dad a lot. And it was just kind of like every day was verbal abuse and a lot of like humiliation. Yeah. And I actually, this particular boyfriend I'm thinking of, there was a flight that we took together where he knew I had this fear of flying already. And we got into a fight about something completely unrelated. in a way that felt very much like his, like, I'm like, why are you dredging this up right now? I'm like already trying to self-regulate and get on this plane. And that entire trip was just like by far the worst experience because he was like being mean to me and being angry of me, accusing me of doing things I hadn't done or was worried I would do things I hadn't ever done. So I was very like, punished for no reason um and emotionally i was just like i felt very trapped then too because i was like well we're on this fucking trip together and it's also like a professional trip and like i can't go about my business while you're like humiliating me and torturing me every second um so again it's like all been emotional stuff that really yeah breaks me what was

SPEAKER_03:

So that was a moment where you felt broken, like you couldn't handle it. There was like, so what I wrote here was I was in a verbally and emotionally abusive relationship and my boyfriend picked a fight in the most vulnerable moments of my phobia, trapped, kicked when I'm down. Right. And we were talking about you not being able to handle it. And what happened to you? Like, did you, did you cry? Did you dissociate?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I cried and there was a lot of silence. He wasn't very good at like communicating through shit. Things never really ever would heal. It'd just be like this big, long, ongoing fight. Yeah. we got into several more fights about completely unrelated things. And we're talking like really minute, like basic controlling boyfriend shit. Like, like thinking that I was like doing this thing to like, I was living my life in this way. That was like, in spite, like everything that was just like my normal life was just like somehow like, To hurt him. To hurt. Yeah, exactly. Like it was all made up, too.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I mean, I think that that to me sounds like he experienced a lot of like a lot of narcissistic injury is what we might call it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. I'm going to move us to the next column. Now, this is evidence that does not support the hot thought. So what we're saying here is that you might experience pain or agony. but you will be able to handle it or you will get through it. What are some experiences or some evidence that supports that idea? I'm

SPEAKER_01:

still alive.

SPEAKER_03:

That is true.

SPEAKER_01:

And thriving, I might add. Yes, and thriving. Thank you, Prozac. Yeah. I, you know, this would sound a lot different if I wasn't taking Prozac right now. Um, that certainly helps. Um, and yeah, I mean, I, thankfully at this moment in time, um, I don't know. I was going to say that I don't have any like wounds, but I'm like, that's not true. Like I, you know, I am able-bodied physically, emotionally not doing as hot. So again, you know, the wounds are all emotional. But, you know, I have been able to carry myself this far and that is, is, one big piece of evidence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So I put in like you have supports now that you haven't always had. And in brackets, I put Prozac. Are there other supports you have now that you didn't always have?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I am in a healthy going on four year relationship with a guy who was my best friend before we dated. And it wasn't It's just so fucking different. I thought that all relationships were had to be a roller coaster ride until this relationship.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And so I wonder if the evidence here is that, you know, agony doesn't look the same when you have emotional safety.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know what? To add on to that, it's like I think I've actually really created a lot of beautiful things from my worst life experiences. It's as though I pull inspiration for positive things I do create from the resilience I've cultivated, primarily from childhood. And I don't feel like I had a childhood either. Right. So I, I feel like I just like, uh, got a lot of important life skills from that, um, survival process. Um, so yeah, I feel strong.

SPEAKER_03:

Good. That, and that, yes, I feel strong. That is evidence, right? That like you can withstand things and you will be able to handle things. Now we've got this hot thought. I'll experience pain, agony, but this time I won't be able to handle it. Um, And the situation is when you're hearing sounds during a flight. So I want us to go back to this idea of the turbulence and the sounds. And your biggest fear is that I'm strong, but there's this time I might not be able to handle it. There might be this prolonged death, this painful death. I won't be able to handle the heightened body memories. What are some alternative thoughts you would want to tell yourself in this moment that are in opposition, alternative to the hot thought?

SPEAKER_01:

I have some very specific thoughts I think about when I am in that turbulence zone. I'd say one of the... cutest ones is I think about the plane being a gigantic bird and I'm just like a tiny little like I'm one of its organs like I'm like I'm like a part of a larger organism and we're all flying inside this happy plane planes are happy when they're in the air they prefer to be in the air they're less happy on the ground and this bird even if one of its engines gets fucking knocked out still Still could land totally fine because, you know, technology and science exists and they plan for everything. Yes. For the most part.

SPEAKER_03:

OK, so I'm going to give me a moment to catch up here. That's OK. Technology is amazing. And. Okay. So there's a couple of things here. One is very like logical and practical, right? Like technology is amazing. It'll fix most things. Like I don't have to worry. The other thing is an image that you conjure that says I'm part of a larger organ. No, I'm, I'm, I'm an organ. That's part of a larger bird.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. A plane bird. I pretend the plane is like this.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, well, I don't worry about the birds falling out of the sky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Okay. So I'm in Oregon. That's part of a larger... Okay. So that's lovely. I think that imagery is very, very helpful. Technology is amazing. That's also very true. Now, I wonder if you can come up with a thought that has specifically to do with your pain threshold, feeling out of control, something that really speaks to... the worry about prolonged pain or leaving the world with unfinished business?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, I mean, this is dark, but, uh, I'm like, I'm great at dissociation. I can fully check out of fully tear. Like I could just go to another place. Um, and I would be able to do that same thing again. Um, which is not like a good thing, but it is a real thing. And it's a survival skill. So I guess there's like, I'm like, well, I can adapt to anything, even the most terrible things. And if I do die, I'll be dead.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But, you know, it's really interesting because, yeah, if you're dead, you're not going to care about dying because you'll already be dead. I get it. Right. But as a living person, you're flying because presumably you're like wanting to do something that is about being very much alive and you're in the air and you worry about. There's this belief about having to endure future pain, maybe being deserving of future pain. I don't know. And there's also worry about dying with unfinished business. And I'm thinking about another thought that speaks directly to any of those. So you've done that a bit because you said, like, I can adapt to anything.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, without, again, not, I don't mean this in a dark way, but I've already done a lot. And, like, you know what, if my life had to end, like, it wouldn't, at the end of the day, like, shit can be finished. I'm certainly not ready or wanting that. But, like, we know that, you know... It sucks because like, I don't want to be in the territory of like, well, I have to be a special person and, you know, I have to be remembered because as much as I want to be remembered, I also really just want to vanish and not be remembered in a positive way. Like I would like to just blow away in the wind sometimes in a, in a peaceful way, not in a, in a negative way. And I think that we all, I think it answers a lot of existential questions when you are faced with a life and death scenario. So even if something traumatic were to happen to me, I would either die and know the answer to one of life's great mysteries, or I would cultivate even more resilience and skill and you know even if i had had a new um wound uh you know literal or emotional um i would be able to adapt to that as well like i have with all my other wounds and um you know be able to cultivate something even out of the worst situation i i hope That's a very optimistic way of looking at it because nobody wants more wounds.

SPEAKER_03:

Give me a sec here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I have listened to what you said, but wrote none of that down only because, um, I worry we're getting a bit existential and I think there's nothing wrong with that, but like, there's lots of space for that in therapy, but when it comes to, when it comes to cognitive behavioral work, we're really thinking about specific thoughts that counter the difficult belief or thought you have. So what I wrote here was what I wrote was it's true that that I could experience pain that I can't control, but it's unlikely to go that far today.

SPEAKER_01:

That's good.

SPEAKER_03:

That's good. You see where I'm going with this? Yes. Yes. Okay. Because I think there's something about acceptance here that pain could happen again. And also that it's unreasonable for you to expect yourself to tolerate any pain and all pain. Like, I think that could be another alternative thought. It's unreasonable for me to expect myself to do that. Here's

SPEAKER_01:

one thought that's like positive and negative is I think about how much more likely I am to die any other number of ways. Like you are far less, you are more likely to die in the car ride to and from the airport than in the plane. Now that is, for some reason does not stress me out in a car. I don't think that that thought would help everybody, but for some reason, you know, I think about how I get in my car every day, multiple times a day, and I never feel fear when I turn the key to the ignition, but I'm also in control in that situation. So there we go.

SPEAKER_03:

You said the magic thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like the thought that I get there, that's alternative would be, I'm not in control at the moment and I'm still safe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. So I'm just going to put that in here. I am not in control at the moment, but I'm still safe. Statistically speaking, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Statistics are, you know, a lot of safety in those statistics. Totally. Totally.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. Give me a sec here. I just have to have it fit on one page. Otherwise I feel neurotic.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I know what you mean. I've got a lot of thoughts. Okay. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_03:

So, okay. One other thing we're going to do now, I'd like for you to look at all of these alternative thoughts and tell me which one you think would be most helpful when you're thinking, when you're on the, when you're on the plane and you are hearing sounds or you're experiencing turbulence. Which would be the most helpful for you? And which one do you believe the

SPEAKER_01:

most? I'd say I'm an organ. That's part of a larger bird. That first one. And then also it's true. I could experience pain that I can't control, but it's unlikely to go that far today because I think that one is very realistic and believable. Whereas like, I'm not literally in a bird, but I am like, you know, I think that imagery compliments the, the, the fact of the matter that like it would, you know, there's so many other things that are more likely to happen. I'd probably, you know, winning the lottery even maybe, you know?

SPEAKER_03:

So Zoe, our next task is, um, to revisit the feeling. So I want you to meditate for a moment on the imagery that you're an organ that's part of a larger bird. Planes are happy when they're in the air. And then say to yourself, it's true that I could experience pain that I can't control. That's possible. But it's unlikely to go that far today. And tell me when you think about that and when you have that imagery, where's your anxiety at? Like a

SPEAKER_01:

four.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. What about panic?

SPEAKER_01:

Also a four.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Feeling forced or powerless?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say like a six, but like a more like, that's fine. Like, yes, I'm out of control. And like, I'm always like none of us are ever really.

SPEAKER_03:

No problem. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Forced is a six and powerless is also a six.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, but it's like. Positive powerlessness, not anxiety powerlessness.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure. No, no, that makes good sense. I was going to say positive form and fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Five.

SPEAKER_03:

Loneliness.

SPEAKER_01:

Three.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Unprepared.

SPEAKER_01:

One.

SPEAKER_03:

Sadness.

SPEAKER_01:

Two.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Self-pity.

SPEAKER_01:

Two.

SPEAKER_03:

Now. Nostalgic.

SPEAKER_01:

One.

SPEAKER_03:

Wistful. Vague longing.

SPEAKER_01:

Two.

SPEAKER_03:

Romantic?

SPEAKER_01:

I want to say six only because I think the idea of being in a big silver bird is pretty romantic. Yes. teamwork and like, we're all part of a larger thing. Love

SPEAKER_03:

it. Yes. And do any new feelings come up for you when you, when you say to yourself, it's true that I could experience pain that I can't control, like that could happen, but it's unlikely to go that far today. What new, are there new feelings?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. The new feeling is like, you have to do something Things that are uncomfortable in order to experience new things and experience joy, like experiencing joy through travel, whether that be through professionally or personally, the benefits of going places. How would I say that as a feeling? Is that adventurous? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Adventurous jet setting.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Okay. So you're feeling adventurous and you're, you're also the way you're talking about approaching risk is like, I'm thinking the feeling is like excited or determined.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And like accepting maybe just like knowing that like, Yeah. I think accepting for me because it's like, yeah, there's going to be some, some waves literally because turbulence is like air waves, but it's like, I'm going to like surf that, you know? Yeah. So I'm along for this ride and yeah. So, so like, yeah, a sense of peace.

SPEAKER_03:

Peace.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So this is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, not trying to say all the magic words, but just some

SPEAKER_03:

of them. All right. When I look at this final column, I'll tell you a bit about what stands out to me. And then you can tell me what stands out to you about this last column and also the whole process. So it's true that you can, as you can imagine, we're at the end of our gruesome eight columns here. We really worked hard. But one thing I see is that The fear, right? The anxiety, the panic, it takes you to a slightly irrational place where you start to do safety, what I would call safety behaviors. Part of the opportunity we've had here has been to see what the thoughts are underneath. And actually it's not just thoughts related to flying, they're about beliefs. And it seems like there's beliefs about, you know, it being inevitable that you'll experience pain and fear that you won't be able to handle the pain. And there's concern about being out of control. And as we move into alternative thinking, right, we're moving to a place where you see yourself as an important function of a larger whole, right? So you have a role. There is some control there. It's just different. It's not unlike the guy from Lost who like, was in the bathroom. Like that was his form of control. And also, you know, when you talk about present feelings, you can say things like acceptance and peace. I think that's really hard to get to, but I think there's something there about, you know, pain is possible. It's also possible that I won't be in control. It's normal that I won't be in control, but I'm going to, it's likely not going to happen today. Um, And I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there, right? So I really like that, you know, some of your feelings around anxiety and panic went down significantly. Your fear also went down significantly. I think it's nice to think about how your sense of loneliness stayed about the same. And loneliness is something that can get overshadowed by something like anxiety. Right. And you've had a father die. You're talking about being on a plane alone. And I think that, you know, The anxiety is such a superpower and masks so many things. There is something to think about, about like this existential fear of dying alone or having pushed people away or having hurt people and dying with unfinished business. I think it's okay to, if you said anxiety went down by half, but sadness and loneliness went up, even I would say that's much easier to work with.

SPEAKER_02:

You

SPEAKER_03:

know, it says there's more to work with than, you know, the idea that the plane will crash because we know statistically that's unlikely. Okay. Those are some of my reflections on your process. What are some of your reflections on this process?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, these are all things I've obviously done a lot of thinking about and have drawn these connections out to some extent, but it is really doing things for my logical brain that are very satisfying and like seeing how they are mirrored. I think one thing that really stands out to me is how like much more like deep psychological things affect the mundane day to day stressors or to like translate that into how anxiety shows up in my life. You know, like if I'm. stressed out about like the cleanliness of my house. It's probably not the cleanliness of my house. That's stressing me out and something completely unrelated that is bubbling up. And that is what I am taking it out on. So, so the, the active issues are often masking the deeper parts of the iceberg, I guess is my big takeaway.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Well, I'm, I'm glad that you indulged me in this process. It was useful. I hope

SPEAKER_01:

it helps other people with a fear of flying or fear of catastrophic death and pain.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Or someone who's lost a parent screen for a moment. It's just us girls. I want to ask you without the thought record, without, you know, something very linear, you, you, you, one thing that we, you know, we didn't talk about here, but it seems like your dad is a central figure or was in your life. And the onset of the anxiety was after he died. What's the connection between flying and dad? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01:

First thing that comes to mind, although I'm not sure how it relates is that like being in flight is like the state of limbo. Like you're not, you're neither here nor there. I think that this is a real abstract push, but my, the duality of my dad being one of my favorite people and one of my least favorite, that's been the struggle of the, you know, he's been gone for almost seven years now. And the first couple of years were very one dimensional, like not, seeing the bigger picture of it and now the bigger picture is just that like you know it can be both like people are all capable of being fucking terrible and people are all capable of being very loving and you know we all uh contain multitudes we all So it's like this duality of like being neither here nor there. And then like, just like humans, we're kind of always like heading from one place to another on a timeline and things change when we have landed in a new place. It is a different, you know, just like there's snapshots of a human life that can be amazing or terrible. And then overall, it's kind of like, net neutral often because it's like for every fucked up shitty thing my dad did, there are so many things that made him a amazing, amazing inspirational person. And I think he gave me so many good qualities.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. Yeah. I feel both ways. It makes me think about how, like you described, so now we're stepping away from CBT, but just almost thinking about something a bit larger, like that is existential. That is maybe, maybe it's a bit more psychoanalytic where you describe being in the air as being in limbo and limbo is where you're allowed to accept contradictions and duality and The limbo is this transitional space where you get to grieve and, you know, it might be the flying for you might have been the might have become the place where limbo, you know, contradictions are allowed or in between places. And it provides a unique space for you to process objectively what your dad was in your life. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

that's beautifully said and very insightful. And you certainly therapized this very therapized girl, despite all the work I've done. Like, I definitely take something away from this for

SPEAKER_03:

sure. Cool. All right. Zoe, thank you for being on the CBT Dive. Thank

SPEAKER_01:

you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, this has been so much. And I'll see you in Detroit sometime, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes,

SPEAKER_03:

please. All right. I'm

SPEAKER_00:

going to stop recording now. Okay.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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