The CBT Dive

E10 Career planning in my 40's and the grief of time passed

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 10

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Sometimes self-doubt increases with age. And, we look back at the bold decisions of our twenties and thirties and wonder if we made the right choices. In this episode, Phil examines his grief, regret, and anxiety about changing careers in his mid-40s and wonders if he really should have left his post-secondary studies for a partner over a decade ago.
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to demand What therapy can look like and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, welcome to another episode of the CBT Dive. I'm really excited to invite my guest today, Phil, who is in his early 40s and lives in Toronto's Gay Village. He is Asian Canadian and devotes his time to community activism and working in hospitality. The pandemic has thrown him into existential angst. He is joining us today to explore challenges around career and education. Welcome, Phil. How are you today? I am good, thank you. Great. Phil, what do you know about cognitive behavioral therapy?

SPEAKER_03:

I know you do it, and I know it's about documenting the... inner voice thought processes that surface when we're dealing with an anxious situation or feeling blocks around, when you feel like you're going around in circles and being able to identify what those circular thoughts can be.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally. You know what? I couldn't have said it better myself. So it's precisely that we're going to be analyzing some of the thoughts that you might experience as a block. So that's a great way of describing it. Phil, can you see my thought record screen? I can. All right, lovely. So I've already punched in the situation here. So you recently found out that you have to start over with grad school, right? For some context, you had connected with the university that you had attended 10 years ago and you wanted to be reinstated. You had completed about a year and a half's worth of coursework out of two years. So you were three quarters of the way through the program and you found out just recently that they can't reinstate you because it's been 10 years. When did you find this out? Two days ago. Okay. So I think the time reference is important. Let's start with some of the things you've been feeling as you found, like as a result of having found out. Or it could even be feelings you're feeling right now because you're still, I imagine, grappling with this.

SPEAKER_03:

Feelings include feeling foolish. Okay, so

SPEAKER_01:

foolish. What other Felix?

SPEAKER_03:

Defeated. Defeated, yes. Feeling Sad

SPEAKER_01:

and disappointed. Sad and disappointed. Absolutely. Anxious?

SPEAKER_03:

Anxious and nervous. Okay. Because I had a feeling of confidence. I... I built up some confidence to approach it. And I think rationally, I knew that this could be an outcome, but it also felt that I made a mistake by not accepting a reality before it.

SPEAKER_01:

Would you, if I were to turn that into a feeling, would there be, would that be remorse or regret?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Remorse, regret, and feeling like I had wasted time, not only time around the application, but time around the past 10 years. And so there's a, there's a feeling of grief and regret.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

that I've missed an opportunity. I've missed an opportunity that was available to me. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Well, I have to say this is a it's a tough situation. It's a probably a difficult headspace to be in. Here are the feelings that I've noted. And I can appreciate that they're gonna they're gonna show up in your mind and your body in two different degrees. But there was confidence so i did put confidence down even though i'm sure it's not taking like it's not essential by any means at the moment the other feelings i've put down are foolish defeated sad disappointed nervous anxious regret or regretful and grief um i wonder if there is Anything else you'd like to add in terms of feelings that come up for you when you think about just finding out that you have to start all over and that you won't be reinstated? Is there anger, for example?

SPEAKER_03:

There's some anger and some paranoia.

SPEAKER_01:

Can you tell me a bit about the paranoia?

SPEAKER_03:

Um, that I, if I'm not admissible, you know, if I wasn't able to finish something, uh, successfully in the past, maybe I won't be able to finish it in the future, but also paranoia of, uh, that I am going to be continued. The paranoia being continually, uh, Or it brings up future fear of more getting attached to things that I'm going to be rejected from.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I'm just going to, you know, when I asked you to expand on paranoia, the other things that kind of came up, even though you didn't say them explicitly, seem to be doubt, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And hopelessness. Would you say those are part of the puzzle here? Yes. Okay. So we've listed a good number of feelings. I'm going to go through each one and would like for you to rate them on a scale of one to 10. 10 means they're particularly intense or the most intense. And one would be, you know, not intense at all. Now, this is like, how you've been feeling over the last few days and even how you're feeling now. So how would you rate your current level of foolishness? About a six. Okay. Feeling defeated. How would you rate that? A five. Feeling sad. How would you rate that?

SPEAKER_03:

Over the past two days, I'd give it a

SPEAKER_01:

Are you averaging it out over the two days?

SPEAKER_03:

I, in a way. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. You know what? Let's try this again because I think averaging something out over two days can be, can be tough. Let's assess what it's feeling like now. Okay. So give me one sec. So this occurred two days ago, but we're going to assess what it feels like now. And that's because it's still fresh enough that it might be useful to talk about where your feelings are at now. So let's start with sad. Where's your sadness at right now?

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I'd give it a five. OK,

SPEAKER_01:

where is your disappointment at right

SPEAKER_03:

now? Three. Nervous. Seven. Anxious. Seven. Regret. Eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Grief.

SPEAKER_03:

Eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Anger.

SPEAKER_02:

Three. Paranoia.

SPEAKER_01:

Five. Okay. Doubt.

SPEAKER_03:

So six. Hopeless.

SPEAKER_01:

Five. Okay. And where is your confidence at? How would you rate your confidence? Five. Okay. So when finding out, this news what have you been doing since in terms of your behavior i got a sense that you were maybe ruminating a bit but um it could be ruminating reflecting i'm curious to know what you've been doing maybe drinking i don't know

SPEAKER_03:

um i usually would have had a drink um but i finally i forgot that i wanted to do that oh okay I went, I ate a lot. Okay. Did you eat yummy food? I did eat, I ate like a comfort soup. Okay. I didn't taste that yummy.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

But I didn't. I tried to fix it and I couldn't, so I just ate it. I knew I was fading. I knew I was falling asleep. Ah, okay. So my response was to get really tired and unusually go to bed early. Go to bed early. I went to bed early, like at 10 o'clock.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And if I'm correct, you had the soup that you didn't actually like.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I had a soup I didn't love.

SPEAKER_01:

So had a soup I didn't love, went to bed early. What are one or two more things? I had a

SPEAKER_03:

soup I know I can make better, but I couldn't make that happen.

SPEAKER_02:

Went

SPEAKER_03:

to bed early, woke up at 3 a.m., couldn't go back to sleep. So

SPEAKER_01:

difficulty staying asleep and ruminating.

SPEAKER_03:

I'd have to look at my dream. I take notes on my dreams. So... I had a dream about, you know, an ex and I had a dream about academia and I think I was in a workshop or something.

SPEAKER_02:

My

SPEAKER_03:

notes are blurry, but I know I had, I think they showed up in some dream thoughts. I actually, right before I got the... denial i had an appointment with my astrologer so within a minute i had a a meeting with somebody else to process this a little bit process it through my hobby yeah which was a health

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. All right. So I'm going to move us over to the next column. Now, the next column is automatic thoughts, right? So your behavior is you had a soup you didn't love. You went to bed early, but you had difficulty staying asleep. You were ruminating. You also talked to your astrologer, which is nice, right? Now, when I think about your thoughts, you know, thoughts can also show up in images and certainly your dream, right? is a kind of image, right? So I've only noted down that the dream or the images, I know that it's a vague, but there's something about academia, delivering or being in a workshop, and an ex-boyfriend. These are the pieces of the puzzle. And I don't know if you remember the details, but I wonder if you remember... the consequence in the dream? Like, was it a scary dream? Were you seeing yourself as a failure? Were you seeing yourself as a success? Were you experiencing rejection? What was going on?

SPEAKER_03:

There was racing going on, running. There was a feeling of running through an airport going on. There was a, I, I, I feel like there's a sense of urgency because my notes just say racing airport submit. I was submitting. I think I was literally submitting, um, something. I think the submission showed up in to the dream, the applying to for something. Hmm. So you were running late. I was running late and, um,

SPEAKER_01:

And you were like between cities? Were you in your home city where the school is? Or were you in a different city? I'm just curious about the significance of being between places.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah. It could have been Pearson Airport.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, okay. And as you were submitting this thing or racing to submit it, Were you coming back to Toronto or leaving Toronto? I think I was leaving. Okay. So there's something about going somewhere that seems to show up. Okay. I'm going to just leave this image aside for now. We may come back to it. And I want to ask some of your thoughts thoughts that might be connected to feeling foolish?

SPEAKER_03:

I was chatting with a friend that evening and I didn't bring it up and I still haven't. It's been a conscious choice to not share it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And you're thinking, I don't want to share because? I don't want to share because I don't

SPEAKER_02:

want

SPEAKER_03:

to share a defeated message.

SPEAKER_01:

What do you think they will think when you share a defeated message?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, they would be empathetic. They would be sympathetic. But I don't want that to be my focus.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so you don't want to tell people you know about this. You don't want people to know about this because they'll empathize while you're feeling defeated and something about that. It seems like it doesn't fit well for you. You're wanting to. You're wanting to stay in this defeated place a little bit longer, like you're not ready for empathy. And I wonder if that's tied into like there's a kind of harshness that you're having with yourself at the moment, and maybe that's where the regret comes in. So tell me a bit about what you regret. Hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

I regret, actually, I regret prioritizing an ex-boyfriend over, I regret allowing a relationship to pull focus at a time when I was previously enrolled in school. I regret I regret the the commitment I made. Because this isn't entirely true. But the thought is, neither are really neither, neither that school commitment or that relationship are serving me in this moment.

SPEAKER_01:

So I let a relationship pull me away from school is like this. That's the thought there.

SPEAKER_03:

That's the, that's the thought.

SPEAKER_01:

And I guess the addition to it is, and are you saying, and it wasn't worth it. And I

SPEAKER_03:

even, Go ahead. Yeah, and and I'm not sure and I'm still not entirely sure why I lost so much steam. Towards the end of my program.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm going to put that down as a separate thought. I'm not sure why I lost. So much steam. Toward the end of my degree. Tell me a bit about feeling hopeless. When you think about self-doubt, paranoia, the hopelessness, what kinds of thoughts are connected to those feelings? So you feel doubtful about what? Or you feel hopeless about what? Or you feel hopeless, or you feel paranoid that's what will happen?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. that I'm running out of time to really make a meaningful career out of the next few years. I have some doubts even if once I reapply, where will it take me?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. I'm going to take this a bit further. So when there's a

SPEAKER_03:

fear,

SPEAKER_01:

sorry, say that last part again.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah. Am I making another mistake? Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm going to write that as a statement. I might be making another mistake by reapplying. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I'm feeling lost. I'm not sure what the direction is.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, okay. So when you talk about running out of time to make a meaningful career, tell me a bit about that. Like there's some context there that I think there's thoughts, ideas, assumptions, a framework in your mind about when people work, when people establish careers that I need you to help clue me into. So why is it that you're running out of time?

SPEAKER_03:

Because I'm mid-40s. okay and

SPEAKER_01:

um and did you envision yourself retiring at 65 is that why i um

SPEAKER_03:

will be because because i think that there's not as much time as there used to be to build build something and get accredited and become to build an expertise around um a field and yeah

SPEAKER_01:

okay i

SPEAKER_03:

appreciate that a lot I have less time to take risks just because of age and time and finances. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Fair. So when I think about I'm running out of time to make a meaningful career, under that is, well, there's not as much time. Like, I don't have as much time as I once had to build expertise. I don't know. And there's less time to take risks. So if those are true, that your time for risk-taking is all but over, and you have to make really solid decisions now, and there might not be enough time for you to build an expertise, what is the consequence of that for your future, your career?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and also knowing... that people can start things and be successful at things that they've started in their forties, but not knowing what that could be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, so that's the uncertainty, but I'm gonna bring you back to this idea that you had presented, that you don't have as much time as you once had to build an expertise. And I'm saying, well, if that's true, then phil tell me what's the consequence of that i'm trying to further this thought a bit okay so if you can't build an expertise in a particular area then what will happen

SPEAKER_03:

then um then i'll have failed so

SPEAKER_01:

i'll be a failure And can you tell me quickly, how do you define failure? Is it like money, stability, prestigious job title? What kinds of failure?

SPEAKER_03:

That I've had access to opportunity and I...

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_03:

the time just passed and I don't have an organization or a job title or some savings or any assets or a family or any type of legacy to show for it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. like not even a website, you know, like no digital footprint. Okay. Anything that can be tied to any feeling of, yeah, it feels very... Accomplishment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay. So I want to go back to... this thought that you had that I let a relationship pull me away from school. Tell me a bit about this. So this is clearly tied to the regret, but if you made a decision at the time to prioritize your relationship over school, what does that say about you as a person? Or what do you think that says about you as a person? What do you think other people will think that says about you as a person?

SPEAKER_03:

At the time, I felt really empowered around it. I thought it was a very... reasonable choice to take a break from school and strive for something that I wanted to accomplish. Back then, I wanted to accomplish a stable relationship. I thought that's what I wanted. And I thought that would be rejuvenating. Okay. And instead? And instead it was depleting and I didn't realize how much I, I didn't stop myself from investing a lot into it. The time, money and resources and career instability into it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so the way I'm writing that out, and you tell me if this resonates with you, because I want to make sure it's like, it fits for you. So you let this relationship pull you away from school. And if that's true, or what does that say about you? You know, the judgment or the evaluation you have of yourself is that, well, I didn't stop myself from investing in a relationship despite the ongoing cost. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then... I'm gonna ask you a similar question to build off of that. So I didn't stop myself from investing in the relationship despite the ongoing cost. And so what does that say about you as a person in terms of someone who makes decisions or somebody who prioritizes? What does it say about your ability to do those things?

SPEAKER_03:

Poor. And the things that I think are in my best interest don't turn out to be in my best interests. I'm

SPEAKER_01:

going to say it a bit shorter. I don't always know or trust that I know what's in my best interest. Okay. And if you don't always know or trust that you know what's in your best interest, Where could that lead you? Where would be the ultimate place that that could take you?

SPEAKER_03:

Perpetual failure. Sorry,

SPEAKER_01:

what was the last thing you said? Perpetual?

SPEAKER_03:

Perpetual mistakes. Perpetual disappointment, realizing... Something that I was really committed to. Was. Not serving me. Or

SPEAKER_01:

didn't have my back, so I might continue to invest in things. That don't. serve me. And this, I think is like, if we were to say like, what does that mean? You know, what is the meaning of this? I think it goes back to, uh, this idea that you, you, you worry that you don't always know or trust that, you know, what's in your best interest. Um, so, you know, some of the, some of the other things you've said, um, actually quite valuable as well but i'm going to i'm just going to do a bit of rearranging on this thought record so we can get everything onto one screen okay yeah it's just more um because i ideally would like to analyze all of these thoughts but i don't think we're going to be able to and so i just want to put on the screen um the ones that i do want you to look at so The dream and the image, right? It's making a lot more sense to me. I don't know if it has illuminated anything for you, right? You're talking about academia and your ex-boyfriend, and you're running to the airport, you're racing to submit something, and you're leaving, you're going somewhere, right? So I would presume, if I were to make sense of that, the dream is about the tension between two different priorities. Now, here are some of your automatic thoughts. I let a relationship pull me away from school. I didn't stop myself from investing in a relationship despite the ongoing cost. I don't always know or trust that I know what's in my best interest. I could be destined for perpetual mistakes and disappointment. I might continue to invest in things that don't serve me. I'm running out of time to make a meaningful career. I don't have as much time as I would One's had to build an expertise. There's less time to take risks. I'll be a failure because I let opportunities pass. And I won't have a legacy. I'm just going to shift that here because I did type that out incorrectly. Won't have a legacy. Now, as you look at all of these thoughts, Phil, I would love for you to just... Read them, meditate on them for a moment. I want you to tell me which thought, which one thought do you think is most salient, most prominent? Because that's going to be your hot thought. The hot thought is the one that you think is driving or most central to most of the feelings you've put in the feelings column.

SPEAKER_03:

The feeling of time, the thought about time, and not knowing what the choice is in this moment, that's ultimately fulfilling.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay, so we're focusing on the second half, right? That I'm running out of time. And you also mentioned that you've let opportunities pass. And there's just something about a legacy. And I wonder if you can tell me about what your dream is around the legacy. What do you want to contribute? What do you want to leave behind? Tell me a bit about why your mind goes there or what it goes to when you think about legacy.

SPEAKER_03:

I think of you know having run a project successfully that is ongoing and can perhaps life after contributed to it you know been a part of its design been a part of its maintenance

SPEAKER_01:

And why is that important to you or what does it say about you if you're not able to do that?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it goes back to, but I must have learned a lot of things over the years and now stuck in how to apply them. And I'm feeling like I don't have that much more time to pick up more skills or there are things that I'm just not gonna be good at. And am I gonna spend, how much more time am I gonna spend investing in things that I am going to not, not do well in or not excel. So there's the fear of not acing it.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_01:

there's less time to take risks and invest in things that I won't ace. You're also thinking like, hey, I've learned a lot, but don't know how to apply this now. And I'm guessing there's a sense that what you've learned is either not enough or not applicable. Which one is it?

SPEAKER_03:

Um, I mean, it's, it's about, it's, it's about other people hiring me, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's partly, uh, It's partly about not having to, even getting stuck on the sentence. I'm not sure. I guess I'm feeling a block around it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, okay. And so the block is, I'm trying to understand it. If I were to put words to it, it's like, We're talking about employability, who would hire you. And I'm thinking the thought here is, I know a lot, and yet I don't know what I have to offer. Yeah. And I'm going to rephrase it a bit to say, I don't know that I have anything. or enough to offer. Let's just say it's an employer, but it could also be in academia, it could be in a relationship, it could be in so many things, right? Those kinds of feelings usually carry through. Okay, so would I be correct in assuming, and you could say no, but would I be correct in assuming that this last statement you just shared, like, I don't know that I have anything or enough to offer. Do you think that's the salient thought? Is that the one that's really at the core of a lot of this? Or is it that like, you could still pick another one, like I'll be a failure because I let opportunities pass, for example. We know that whatever you're going to pick is going to be in the second half of the automatic thoughts.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, there's also like the practical things of, I don't know what I have anything to offer. And also, I don't know like how much money I'm going to be able to invest in becoming a better person or a better, I'm caught around some financial difficulties. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And your financial resources are more limited now than they were at an earlier time in your life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I'm just adding to one of the thoughts that you have already. I don't know that I have anything or enough to offer an employer, for example, and my financial resources are limited now. Would you say that is...

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, limited in terms of finances and time. Coming back to the idea of limitations is recurring.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

All

SPEAKER_01:

right. I bolded that last thought. So I don't know that I have anything or enough to offer an employer and my resources are limited now, and that means financial and time. Yeah. We are going to evaluate this, right? These are the things you're struggling with. They're at the core of a lot of the feelings you're experiencing. Let's evaluate evidence for the hot thought. The hot thought's the one that's bolded, right? So what is some evidence that does suggest, that does support the idea that you might not know enough or you might not have much to offer an employer or that you have limited resources? This should be easy for you actually, because you've named a lot of those things. Right. So go ahead. Let me know.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Evidence would be my bank account.

SPEAKER_01:

It's wearing thin, is it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's on.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's on social assistance, which it's grateful for.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. No, I hear you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I.

SPEAKER_01:

What about evidence that you don't know enough?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know enough. You know, but. You know, getting not getting a refusal also is kind of validates that my i'm not like my experience is not applicable in this moment i do need to um retrain i do need to the credits don't count anymore um yeah the institution says no Try again and reinvest.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And what have your experiences been around attempting to find employment? Is that been something that you have been doing or have had the opportunity to do? I know we're in a pandemic, so lots of people have not.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Well, my... I'm relying on older skill sets than more recent work experiences because the industry has shifted or the hospitality industry has shifted. When I made a change, it means I'm rusty around things that I was more qualified for 10 years ago. So I'm in a position to look for work based on experiences that aren't gone, but the knowledge that isn't gone, but it's knowledge that hasn't been as directly applied or nurtured

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So now we're going to do something slightly different. It's the other side of that. So evidence that does not support the hot thought. So evidence that suggests that you know something or you know enough to offer an employer and that perhaps your resources could be enough. even though they're limited, that they could be enough, right? So is there some evidence that suggests that?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. I have been reaching out to old employers and references and receiving some positive regard and employment potential.

SPEAKER_01:

So your old employers have been happy to give you a reference?

SPEAKER_03:

Happy to give a reference and team up again on old projects. Things that we worked on years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And so they're offering to collaborate with you. That's a good sign. What else suggests that you know enough to offer an employer um or that your your time and resources could be enough that

SPEAKER_02:

um

SPEAKER_03:

that a lot of people are having to retrain um There is a demand for people to get... There are a lot of people who are having to face this also.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah. That's a good one. Because I think when you think about time and money being limited... Of course, I don't want to deny that objectively you're experiencing some limitations. You might have less of something than you once did. That's maybe an objective mathematical measurement, but our sense of resources is also perceptual to some degree. And when we start to think about, hey, other people have to spend this time midlife also retraining, it doesn't feel like you run out of time or miss the boat necessarily, but more so that retraining is part of the career trajectory. It's like a normal part of the career trajectory. Any other examples of you knowing enough or knowing a lot? Do you have expertise in any particular area you think that would impress an employer or that would be helpful if you wanted to reapply to grad school?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I made pretty longstanding commitments to make community-based projects, despite it being very varied. I've always maintained that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I've made significant contributions to community-based projects Would you say in the past? Yeah. Okay. So your knowledge is value.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I can appreciate the things that I've been able to get to do

SPEAKER_02:

and

SPEAKER_03:

the things that the types of learning experiences I've been able to get, to gain. Yes. And still not know. And I'm able to rely on things I did 10 years ago to help me regroup in this current moment also. So those things.

SPEAKER_01:

What are those things?

SPEAKER_03:

Are those skills,

SPEAKER_01:

knowledge,

SPEAKER_03:

experiences? Skills, knowledge, some short contracts.

SPEAKER_01:

Experiences from the past are still relevant today. so now we've moved into the next column which is alternative thoughts right these are alternative or balanced thoughts that are in response to this idea that i don't know that i have anything or enough to offer and my time and resources could be limited right so you say my skills knowledge and experiences from the past are still relevant today um uh and you know to be fair and there's always more to learn, right? What's another alternative thought you can come up with that you think would be quite helpful when you think, you know, you're at the bottom of the barrel here and you're like, you know what? I don't know if I have anything to offer. What can you tell yourself?

SPEAKER_03:

Maybe the way through this is the way I think that I the other way is I didn't make a mistake that I was able to be I was able to keep reinventing and I'll keep doing that again and I

SPEAKER_01:

did a lot of reinventing and this doesn't speak directly to the hot thought but it does seem to speak to another one of your automatic thoughts which is about mistakes so i did a lot of reinventing uh what does that mean by what do you mean by reinventing

SPEAKER_03:

like change careers um change directions change relationships um It's, you know, it possible thoughts that maybe the, maybe the better options are gone. And now I, the worry is that the, I missed out some opportunities that I won't ever get back again. Those won't, those won't return. So I'm going to have to, feel satisfied with whatever comes next.

SPEAKER_01:

Is there a sense about the opportunities that have passed? Do you feel like... I can appreciate that maybe you feel like they're gone for good, but is there some value in having more limited opportunities? Because you are also worried about going in the wrong direction, making mistakes, for example, right? And so I wonder if there's fewer opportunities, that means there's fewer directions. And so fewer opportunities could actually be like less choice, easier to make decisions. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's possible that... Yeah, it's possible that the time that I'm taking to figure out what to do next is something that I didn't take previously. And it's possible that having less choices taking the time now is going to pay off later. Having the amount of time now. Yes. Versus having jumped into some things more quickly. Yeah. Now

SPEAKER_01:

could pay off later. So. Yeah, so there's some caution, right? So the time I have now could pay off later as in I'm specifically not jumping into things for a reason.

UNKNOWN:

Mm hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, so yeah, you're like, you're treating like, I'm just going to put in brackets here. I'm treating time differently or I'm learning to treat time differently. So we've got quite a few alternative thoughts. I'm going to read them out. Okay. My skills, knowledge, experiences from the past are still relevant today. And there's always more to learn. The second one, changing directions wasn't about mistakes. It was about reinventing. The third one, having fewer options at my age could mean choosing my direction is easier or my next step is easier. And the final thought, the time I have now could pay off later. I'm specifically not jumping into things for a reason. I'm learning to treat time differently. Which one of these do you think is most satisfying to you? Which of these alternative thoughts do you believe the most? Which one do you think responds best to your anxiety, your sense of feeling defeated, your grief or your regret?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there is a thought about, you know, the things that I have access to now, some kind of regular counseling or some more health support I wish I had earlier. And maybe had I had those things, I might have made clearer choices, but. So that, okay, so. Yeah, or sorry, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I was going to say that's, you know what, I think when we complete this thought record, that's a function of remorse or regret that we'll come back to. I think we should talk about that at the end. But at this stage of this thought record, I'm going to ask that we think about not new alternative thoughts, but which of the existing alternative thoughts in that seventh column that really speak to you. Okay. It doesn't have to be a silver bullet. You just have to think about which of these thoughts do I believe and which one resonates with me? Which one is likely to be most helpful for me to think about?

SPEAKER_03:

The one about having fewer options at my age can mean choosing my direction is easier. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Good. So I'm going to bold that. That one is the alternative thought you're thinking about. It doesn't mean the other thoughts aren't helpful, right? But this is the one that I think is, it's quite, it's poignant and it's very relevant, right? Your automatic, your hot thought is that I don't know what I have to offer, but a big part of it is also like, I don't know about my resources and I can't afford to make mistakes and this kind of thing. And you're actually saying, You're talking about the benefits of your age, right? Choosing your next step could be easier. You're more focused now. And so I want to go through your list of feelings again. And new feelings might also emerge and there'll be space for that. But I want you to think about your alternative thought. Having fewer options at my age could mean choosing my direction is easier. How would you rate this feeling of being foolish? One to 10. Does it go down? Does it stay the same? It's just

SPEAKER_03:

gone. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So one or zero?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, one or zero. It doesn't matter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How about feeling defeated?

SPEAKER_03:

Doesn't serve me. Defeated... Yeah, still a five. What about feeling sad?

SPEAKER_01:

Sad.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's still a five.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem. And there's no pressure for these numbers to go in any particular way. We're just reflecting on where it's at. So when you tell yourself having fewer options at my age could mean choosing my direction is easier, what is your level of disappointment?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that gets higher, actually.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no problem. Yeah. Did you say five? Five, yeah. Okay. Nervous? Nervous,

SPEAKER_03:

like three. That one goes down. Three. Okay. Regret? That one goes, that's a five.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Grief? Also five.

SPEAKER_01:

Anger.

SPEAKER_03:

One. Paranoia. One. Doubt. Doubt. One.

SPEAKER_01:

Hopeless. Why? Confidence.

SPEAKER_03:

It goes up a bit. I think it goes up to a six.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Are there new feelings that emerge for you when you say, you know what, having fewer options at my age could mean choosing my new direction or my next step is easier? Some relief. Yeah, totally. Anything else?

SPEAKER_02:

It means,

SPEAKER_03:

yeah, like less worried. That's relief. Some, it's not peace of mind. It's more calm. There is a feeling of surrender in there. And

SPEAKER_01:

surrender is kind of like acceptance, right? So I'll put both of those in.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Renewal. Renewal. I'll take it. And there's a feeling of... It's, you know, whatever I'm going to go for is going to be, have an element of passion to it. So feeling passionate about whatever is the next thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Feeling like you have, like when you talk about the next thing, it seems like you're thinking more that like you have options. That the idea that you have options isn't, hasn't been extinguished. It's still there. Right. And when I think about options, the feeling I'm thinking is like potential or possibility or optimism.

SPEAKER_03:

Some optimism, you know, still some fear that I'm going to have to be the one to find it. And I sometimes feel I don't have all the skills to find like I don't know. Maybe I'm not the one to find out my next step. Maybe I need more help or someone to help me do that or help me because left on my own, I have a limited vantage point.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I'm going to stop you there. I think... So I'm going to share a couple of things that stood out for me in this process now that we've come to the end. And then of course, of course, of course, I want to hear from you. So first, I'm going to talk about your feelings list in the situation compared to your present feelings. So a lot of your feelings that have to do with shame or embarrassment, like, you know, being foolish, for example, or the paranoia or doubt, like those went down quite a bit. Yeah. Disappointment went up. And I think that's valid, right? Like, I think when we take the shame away, the things that you're ashamed of, where you feel foolish and defeated and you're paranoid and full of self-doubt, to me, those are all functions of shame. And when we take that out of the picture or contain it a bit, we can just focus on the disappointment and the grief. You're sad. Like you had an idea about what you could do. You're grieving time lost. Now, I don't think the last 10 years were time lost, but I can appreciate that the year and a half that you spend in school out of a two-year program, of course, that's going to feel crappy, right? Like that time does feel like a loss. It also seems to me like, you know, you... we're somebody who made bold decisions. It takes a lot of bravery to say, you know what? I'm going to follow my love and I'm going to follow my dream. And I want this relationship to work. And you felt pulled by two things. We don't know that if you finished school and you sacrificed your relationship, we don't know that today you wouldn't be here feeling like, you know, that that guy in your life was the one who got away, you know? Um, the other thing I just want to mention is that, you know, uh, there is lots of stuff you've said that to me, um, coincides with the pressures of, or the challenges that come with aging ever so slowly. Like you're in your, your mid forties. Like, I think you're still quite young, but I think there's something developmental happening where you're doing a lot of comparison with other people. And you didn't mention that in the thought record, but when you talk about a legacy, that's one thing that stood out for me. I thought, oh, I wonder if Phil is really thinking about himself relative to other people and this idea of what he leaves behind. You talked about like, oh, I don't have kids, or I don't have that, or I don't have that. And to me, I wondered if there was a kind of comparison going on. The final thing I want to share is that when we contain some of the immediate feelings and we think about the power you have in your wisdom as somebody who's in his mid 40s, as opposed to somebody you were, you know, 10 years ago in your mid 30s or early 30s, when we can really see the wisdom in that. that's when you can experience some relief, calm, surrender, acceptance, renewal, passion, and optimism, right? There's a kind of angstiness or risk-taking energy that is just, it's not present now. And you, I imagine you had it in your mid thirties and it made things easier. And it's okay that you don't have that now. Like I think your life is taking on a different tone at the moment, right? And I'd love to invite you to tell me some of your reflections on this process and what it's been like for you. I

SPEAKER_03:

like that it's clear. You know, I like that the thoughts are summarized and organized and as, you know, there's a single page that things can land on. And I do, I do like the, the feelings list that before and after there, there is a feeling of like evidence of a shift for sure. There

SPEAKER_01:

was also one thing you brought up that I kind of, pushed to the side, which was, you know, I have more resources now than I did then, or more supports. And then there was also like, you were going into regret, like, I wish I had some of those supports in place then. And I try to sidestep that a bit, because I think that would be its own automatic thought in maybe a different situation. So I think that requires slightly different analysis. So that's why I sidestepped that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is, I guess that's part of the learning over the past 10-ish years, how valuable it is to have some supports that didn't exist back then. Yes. And I would like to think of myself like the feeling of brave. I would, you know, if that's a feeling I would like to add to it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Bravery. Some of the salient thoughts are some of the things that you were able to tease out of

SPEAKER_02:

the

SPEAKER_03:

things that I was saying or some of the reflections you had on what I was saying. Mm-hmm. And not necessarily the vocabulary that I would use, so it's helpful.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, when I look at automatic thoughts, one of my goals is to turn them all into statements that begin with I, mostly, because I'm thinking about kind of what your thoughts are, but also what your thoughts are in this situation, but what are some beliefs you have, right? And to do this exercise for the evidence pieces to make sense. We have to stick to one hot thought, but it did seem to me by the time we got to the alternative thought that we were picking one that spoke to your hot thought that maybe, but maybe also spoke to some of your other automatic thoughts, which tells me that, you know, you're experiencing a few thoughts altogether and that's okay. That's okay. There's a number of things going on. There's a few threads here.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. As we went along, my mind started racing. So it was harder for me to get clear. So it was helpful to have somebody helping me get clear or documenting because it was easier at the beginning for sure. It's a

SPEAKER_01:

tiring process.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I started to get overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. All right, Phil. I'm going to let's let's stop there for today. I want to thank you so much for joining me on this vodcast, the CBT dive. I hope this has been a fruitful and useful opportunity for you and has given you some skills and insight and maybe even given you some some more self-compassion as you move forward. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in and staying with the process. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00:

See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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