The CBT Dive

E11 The time I cursed at myself over a small mistake

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 11

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Do you ever scold yourself for small mistakes? What's underneath that tendency to self-punish? In this episode, Dawn examines the time she cursed at herself for merely leaving a water bottle in her car. We did a deep dive to unearth a core belief around (in)competence and fears of future failures.

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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish Hello and

SPEAKER_01:

welcome to the CBT Dive. Today I've got a fabulous guest. Her name is Dawn. Dawn and I met when She was doing the social service worker program at a local college in Toronto. I was her teacher, her instructor at the time. And we happened to keep in touch and she went on to do a BSW and we'll start her MSW in the fall. And in conversation with Dawn, she reminds me that throughout her career and program, a lot of her one-on-one work with clients involves some CBT tools that guide her work. So welcome, Dawn.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Rahim.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm happy to have you. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience that's relevant for us to know about? It could be about your mental health, your interests, or what made you want to take this challenge and do some recorded CBT?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. Yeah, I'll try to keep it quick and simple. I have been experiencing some newly diagnosed mental health, which I was not privy to before COVID. And I was working in an emergency department at a downtown hospital. So there's been some trauma-related PTSD, as I've been told it's called, that has come up. And it's been a bit of a journey of... self-realizations and boundary seeking with friends and family and myself and learning a lot more about medication and how that can or can't help and really trying to better understand the ways that it does help. And I wanted to take this today. Well, I wanted to do this because I think that I have started therapy with a psychotherapist and I thought this would be a really good kind of learning curve and building block for me to kind of bounce back and forth and have the experience of CBT and see if it's something that I might want to do.

SPEAKER_01:

Fabulous. I love that. And I think that you're, you're in a really good head space right now for something like this, because you are, you're digging and you're learning and you're curious and you're doing, you're on a journey of self-awareness. So hopefully this will be one tool or one piece of the larger puzzle. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen and, you'll be able to see this thought record. It's a bit daunting when you first see it, but not to worry. It's my job to help walk us through this.

UNKNOWN:

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So I presume you can see that, okay?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So Dawn, before today, we came up with this situation, a hypothetical situation where we'd be talking about instances when you use self-deprecating language it's you've realized that recently well maybe you've been doing it for a long time but recently you've realized that it's a thing you do and so the exact situation that we found or we came up with was uh recently when you forgot to bring something into the house from outside. That's what I'm guessing from your car or after an activity or lawn chairs or something. And you use self-deprecating language. So you called yourself an effing idiot.

SPEAKER_02:

It was very aggressive. And I said it outwards, outwards.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And your partner was present, right? And her reaction almost... helped you realize that you were quite hard on yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, it was something that came up in actually my very first psychotherapy appointment, gosh, about a month ago now. about ish a month ago three and a half weeks and i shared that with my partner um that that was something i was reflecting on in therapy that the therapist saw that i was doing so my partner i guess had a little bit more of an event flag alert going on and is now catching on more and more so yeah she did pick up on it in that moment

SPEAKER_01:

okay wow

SPEAKER_02:

well

SPEAKER_01:

let's take a look at this situation so can i ask what is it that you forgot to bring into the house

SPEAKER_02:

I actually have it right here with me. It's this cute little water bottle. that my partner got for me once she knew you know I was going through some mental health stuff she's like oh you know what you got to hydrate more got you a cute little bottle to remind yourself and that's like my nighttime bed water bottle and I had forgot it in the bathroom I filled it up in the bathroom with the sink because the water gets so cold and I forgot it in the bathroom three times brush my teeth forgot it went back to get whatever forgot it And then the third time I had forgotten it, that's when that language was

SPEAKER_01:

used. So it was your water bottle. And it wasn't that you forgot to bring it into the house. It was that you just forgot it in the bathroom. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

It was like seven feet away from my bedroom, if that.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, okay. So into my bedroom from the bathroom. Yeah. Okay, I just want to make sure we get it super specific. And this was, you said it was like for the third time or something.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I had gone in to wash, to get face wipes and then forgot it. Went in to brush my teeth, forgot it. And then the third time I went to use the bathroom and had also forgot it in that moment. And got into bed and that's on my way to the bathroom is when I use that language.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so you're on your way to the bathroom and you're like, ah. You say this thing to yourself, what were you feeling in that moment?

SPEAKER_02:

Peed off, just because like, how could you, I'm just surprised.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so surprised. And when you say peed off, I'm thinking, like, I could break that up into a few, like when someone says I'm pissed off, that is an expression of feelings, but the feeling words could be like, Anger, frustrated.

SPEAKER_02:

Frustrated, for sure. Yeah, sorry to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_02:

It was the route I was going down.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so surprised, frustrated. What else?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if this is a good, like, descriptive word, but, like, careless.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

about careless.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And when you feel careless, it seems like you're, you're evaluating yourself negatively.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so a feeling connected to that, I think might be discouraged or ashamed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I think ashamed is one that digs a little deep because that's, you know, when you talk about digging in kind of below the surface, it's like, I felt, first of all, I actually did feel silly. right like this feels really silly how could you forget that three times but um when you dig deeper yeah I think ashamed is one because it's like you you you don't forget things that are much bigger than just a water bottle so how could something so small be so easily forgotten when really big things

SPEAKER_01:

yeah you know when you say silly and you ask yourself how can i possibly do this there there's i think there's a feeling there of um uh incompetence or inadequacy yeah

SPEAKER_02:

incompetent for sure yep

SPEAKER_01:

it's i mean it's harsh but it's there so i'm glad we're naming it it's a surprise frustrated careless ashamed incompetent

SPEAKER_02:

Any

SPEAKER_01:

other feeling words come up for you for that situation?

SPEAKER_02:

It's so hard for me to try to think of the words, but I can describe the feeling and maybe you can kind of. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. It was when I dig deep, I think I was, I'm trying to create new habits for myself, like healthy habits, like rehydrating at night, you know, instead of maybe having a glass of wine when I go, before I go to bed, I'm trying to have water. Right. Yeah. Drink less, keep the brain a lot less foggy. And so I think it just felt like I was not even just letting somebody down or letting the situation down because it's like you've committed to this habit and this new routine at bedtime. And like, why aren't you taking it more seriously? You're so easily to forget that this is part of your new routine. I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a big...

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay. Well, no, I'm glad you gave me that description. So when I think about the feeling words attached to that, one that comes to me is failure. Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. Because

SPEAKER_01:

you're trying to build something new, and if it doesn't work out, maybe there's a sense of failure. And another part of that is you talk about letting someone down. I think when we let people down, we can feel ashamed, which you brought up. We can also feel... guilty or exposed it's almost like someone's watching us and we've let them down

SPEAKER_02:

yeah guilty might be a perfect one and like the universe like I can tell you like my partner wouldn't have thought twice if I forgot the water bottle for the whole night and didn't drink water that night it's not like she's going to be like oh how could she she's not thinking that but there's that weird inner conversation where it's like I want her to I want to make sure she knows there's something that I'm really committed to drinking when hydrating at night. But it doesn't mean I'm not committed. It's like

SPEAKER_01:

those

SPEAKER_02:

thoughts that you have in those moments that seem really kind of silly, as I said.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. There's something about when you talk about that that makes me think you are feeling determined or you want to show someone that you're determined and committed. And I don't know if determined is a feeling that's part, that's wrapped up in this.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I think it is. I think that obsession, for lack of better words, and it's actually the word I would use to describe anyways, I think there's like this obsession with wanting to continue with the determination of fostering these new routines and habits and committing to them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So, and just like anything, there's not many things I do forget. I like to pride myself on remembering, because when I work with, for example, service leaders in the community, I work very hard to remember what they may think is a small detail, but to me is very big, like the name of their daughter, or that they grew up with a dog, or, you know, little details that help to build rapport over time. So, I think just like the determination of like wanting to not forget.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, there's two pieces here. I think when you say the word obsessive immediately, I think like about a commitment to a behavior or routine. And when you don't follow that, the feeling that I think of is anxiety.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yes. And it's like, In that small moment, of course, it doesn't seem like something that would maybe constitute a feeling of anxiety, but the bigger picture of it is like, you know, making sure you take these pills in the morning, making sure that you have that cut to hydrate at night, making sure you take your anxiety pills at a certain time so that you can sleep well. It's like all those things set myself up for success. So the thought of one small thing, not like being... you know, in the pattern of the positive things I'm doing, it's kind of throws everything off.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So a couple of other feeling words that are coming up for me here. And you let me know if they fit for you. Sure. Like we're talking the domino effect. If something is off, everything's off. The two words that I'm thinking of are scattered and rigid.

SPEAKER_02:

I think...

SPEAKER_01:

Like when you realize you forgot the water bottle, is there... I don't know if scattered's a feeling, but it could be, I guess, if you feel out of sorts, you know, I'm scattered mentally. I

SPEAKER_02:

think it feels like there's an incompleteness. It's like, for example, like if I, in the kitchen... I don't know if I remember that I forgot to shut like a cupboard drawer and I think about it. I actually have to physically get up and go shut it because I'll think about it. And I don't have OCD. I've never been diagnosed. And I don't think that is maybe part of it, but it's like, like you said, it's a rigid kind of scatteredness where it doesn't feel right until it's done.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. The word incomplete came up and they liked that. I think people can identify with that. And should we also add rigidity? Is rigidity a feeling? Okay. I think we've got a really good list of feelings here. So surprise, frustrated, careless, ashamed, incompetent, failure, guilty, determined, obsessive, anxiety, incomplete, rigidity. Yeah, I think... Tenses are a bit wonky, but that's okay. Okay. What were you going to say?

SPEAKER_02:

So if I was going to, you know, sometimes my English is my first language, but sometimes you'd never know. I don't have a fast knowledge all the time. So the rigid, like what would be considered something that's rigid, like for a feeling like.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, yeah. That's a great question. I'm thinking about like, when you want something or you anticipate something to look a particular way and it gets, it's closely tied to obsessiveness where you feel out of sorts when it doesn't go exactly how you planned.

SPEAKER_02:

Nailed it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's how I'm thinking about it. I wonder if, I'm going to look up a quick definition to see rigid meaning, unable to bend, or be forced out of shape, not flexible, not able to change or adapt.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Those things. I am trying not to be rigid now that I totally understand, but there's just some little things like this situation where there was definitely some rigidness.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Okay. So in this situation, there's a lot of feelings that come up for you. I want us to go through each of them. And for you, to rate each feeling on a scale of one to 10 with regard to its intensity. The intensity that you experience it at.

SPEAKER_00:

10 is very intense, one is not at all.

UNKNOWN:

So I forgot to put my water bottle into my bedroom from the bathroom for the third time and I used self-deprecating language. To what degree did you feel surprised?

SPEAKER_02:

Probably, Probably like an eight because every single time I got back into the bedroom, I was shocked. Like, oh, my God, you forgot it again. And then I got to do something else.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And then frustrated?

SPEAKER_02:

Probably I was very frustrated that I kept forgetting. So I would say like an eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And careless? Careless.

SPEAKER_02:

So careless, I'm going to go about a five because I don't think I was in that moment able to dig down to realize

SPEAKER_01:

that

SPEAKER_02:

that was like a feeling for me. Of

SPEAKER_01:

course. Ashamed.

SPEAKER_02:

Again, I'm going to put that one in a five zone.

SPEAKER_01:

Incompetent.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe seven.

SPEAKER_01:

Failure.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe a six.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

It was like a little, I wasn't totally thinking about it as a failure in the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's just like somewhere in the puzzle. Fair. What about guilty?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to go like two here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. Determined.

SPEAKER_02:

Ten.

SPEAKER_01:

Obsessive.

SPEAKER_02:

Ten.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And determined. Anxious.

SPEAKER_02:

In that moment, I didn't realize it was probably causing me to be anxious. So I'd say probably like a three.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Incomplete.

SPEAKER_02:

Ten.

SPEAKER_01:

And rigid.

SPEAKER_02:

Hard

SPEAKER_01:

ten.

SPEAKER_02:

Hard ten. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. Great. And so, you know, what did you do in the moment? Well, that's simple. You... Use self-deprecating language. We know that.

SPEAKER_02:

Is

SPEAKER_01:

there anything else you did?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think that it was kind of like in stages. It built up to self-deprecating language that was harmful. The first time I forgot it, I was like, in my head like Britt what the hell

SPEAKER_01:

you

SPEAKER_02:

forgot your water bottle it was kind of funny and then I went to go get it and forgot it again and got into the bedroom and saw my side table without the water bottle and I was like what the hell

SPEAKER_01:

oh

SPEAKER_02:

my god and then the third time the third time after going back to the bedroom on my way to the bathroom that's when I was like you effing idiot what the hell is wrong

SPEAKER_01:

with you

SPEAKER_02:

it was like this build up And

SPEAKER_01:

you, you got the water bottle. That's what you did. I

SPEAKER_02:

think I probably even filled it with colder water.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, you know, in some way, like sometimes people have so many thoughts going on at the same time when we think about rigidity, obsessiveness, but really like you're coming up with new routines. So you've got a bunch of thoughts happening. Um, and, uh, Sure, you use self-deprecating language, which isn't great, but you were also louder, I imagine. And being louder means that you heard yourself. I

SPEAKER_02:

said it out loud

SPEAKER_01:

for the world to hear. And you heard yourself and then you remember.

SPEAKER_02:

I did. I was like, get it together. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

So the third time when you forgot and, you know, you use self-deprecating language, what happened? were you thinking? You already started alluding to some of this, but what are the thoughts connected to feelings of incompetence or failure or incomplete?

SPEAKER_02:

I think the first thing that comes to my head is just one sentence that I would have probably said in my head is, you're better than this. You know better. How could you? It's right there.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So I should know better than this. And when you feel surprised, I think I should know better than this. Like that matches very well. But when you're frustrated, it could be that you say to yourself, I should know better than this, but I wonder if there's another thought connected to feeling frustrated.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, Yeah. So with the frustration part, if I'm trying to like, because this was not very long ago, believe me, it was like, so with the frustrated, yeah. More along the lines of like, how can you keep letting this happen?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And so I'm going to put that in a statement form. So I can't believe that I keep allowing this to happen.

SPEAKER_02:

Bingo.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And when you're feeling like rigidity and incompleteness, what do those feelings tell you? Or are there particular thoughts that are connected to those feelings? I am, I always, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02:

I always need, I don't like, this but I'm trying to be better at it but can it be like a double negative

SPEAKER_01:

because yeah yeah go ahead

SPEAKER_02:

what comes to my mind is um I wish I didn't I wish I could just let that go and

SPEAKER_01:

what is it that you wish you could let go

SPEAKER_02:

The feeling of something needing to be a certain way in order for me to feel comfortable enough to rest or, you know, get back into a comfortable resting zone in bed and be present with my partner or just myself.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. I wish I could just. let that rigidity go yeah

SPEAKER_02:

yeah yeah like it's it's okay if you forgot it that many times or if you would never remember it at all that would have been okay too like

SPEAKER_01:

you might also not have been thirsty

SPEAKER_02:

yeah got my water

SPEAKER_01:

what about sipping water as we say they're like well actually you know what this I've taken more sips of water in this session than any other because we've been talking about this water bottle so

SPEAKER_02:

much. Subconscious.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yes. Now, you're talking about routines and you're trying to build routines. And have you been having some difficulty with that?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, surprisingly, no. So I'm, I myself have always known somebody who I find the routine and I just do it. I know there's some people who get, for example, nervous, like if they have any prescription, they're like, how am I ever going to remember to take this? I don't worry about things like that or things that I know need to be done at a certain time or a certain way. Um, I have an alarm system in my phone for things to build up. that remembering of things. And yeah, it's just something routines to me can fall quite easily if I know that they're healthy for me. And if I know that they're going to be helpful for my daily routine pattern or for my daily living.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That makes good sense. That makes good sense. I'm okay. I'm looking at the three statements we have here, which are your automatic thoughts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

I should know better than this. I can't believe that I'm allowing this to happen. I wish I could just let that rigidity go. So when you say, I should know better than this, what does it mean if you don't and you continue to make the mistake? What does it say about you?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that I'm falling back into an unhealthy pattern. So I will say that I have newly found out that I have anxiety. like clinical anxiety. As always known, I felt symptoms of anxiety that have come up, you know, along the way over the years, but now I've been told, okay, you have anxiety. And so I think for me, Sorry, I'm just trying to backtrack here.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem. What

SPEAKER_02:

was the question?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm sorry. No, that's all right. So you say to yourself, I should know better than this. And the question to you is, what does it say about you if you don't? Or what does it mean when you kind of slip up and you say, well, I'm falling back into an unhealthy pattern. And then you were saying you have a clinical diagnosis of anxiety. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So I think it means that I'm not being accountable or I'm not... committing enough like that I believe that I'm maybe not committing enough into the new pattern and routines of working towards a more healthier life or you know

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

so I'm not committing enough to my new patterns life um

SPEAKER_02:

or that there's also sorry to interrupt it

SPEAKER_01:

go

SPEAKER_02:

ahead so like is there something else that's happening i do tend to keep the thought think deeply like did i forget it that many times because i had some triggers or stressors through the day that i'm not even aware of typically like in the evening it's like i'm very i know how to routine like like a MVP retainer over here, like, you know, brush teeth, wash face, face cream, pills, water bottle. It's like pretty, pretty straightforward. Don't usually fall off that kind of pattern. So when I do fall off, it's all of those feelings list, like the first three for sure. And then the rigidity definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm just going to clarify this. So I'm putting it down as a separate thought. I could have had anxiety or PTSD triggers throughout the day that I'm not aware of. Is that one of the thoughts? Do you think it's not on the surface, but it's kind of there?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Not surfacy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

When I look back and really think like, okay, like that isn't, that isn't typical language you'd use in a situation that we're presenting with. So were there other things happening for me that day that, like you said, it's like not totally surfaced, but you look back and think, something threw off my nightly routine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so you're such a good routine person. Yeah. And if you're having this kind of scattered experience in the evening, it could mean that you were activated earlier in the day. Now that awareness is fantastic, but it seems like that also makes you quite upset in a way that you either have a trauma history or that you were triggered and didn't realize sooner, or there's like a feeling of being angry and upset that you have to contend with this at all. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's, I think it is accurate. I think too, because like what I've learned about my anxiety is that I actually take, so I actually take my anxiety medication at night where from what my family doctor says is that typically people will take them at the beginning of the day to help them get through their day. I find that the nighttime, like bedtime, the most anxiety riding is Because my brain like can't turn off. I'll stay up till three or four and I just lay there and I'll have to watch something because I just can't rest my thinking. So yeah, there could be like a frustration there where like those things could have happened through the day and it's coming up in a different, it's presenting in a way that I am not realizing.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And just to clarify, I used anxiety slash PTSD. Is that accurate or should I just be saying anxiety?

SPEAKER_02:

No, it is. I think it's, I would say for my situation right now, it is much more anxiety driven.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So, okay. So I'll put, I'll keep those there, but we're focusing more on the symptom of anxiety, which is part of a constellation of things when it comes to PTSD. And here we're thinking like, if I could have had a trigger earlier and it's throwing me off and I usually take my anxiety medication before bed and it's during around bedtime that I'm feeling forgetful, I wonder if the consequence or another underlying thought is I'm not in control of my symptoms.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not in control of my symptoms. I think, yeah, that could be very accurate. I mean, I hadn't also, I had also not taken my anxiety pills yet before I got the water bottle. So I would imagine it has been almost 24 hours since I had taken my last dose. So I'm wondering if like, okay, like your body is preparing now for another. Yes,

SPEAKER_01:

yes. You

SPEAKER_02:

know, and I wasn't there yet. And maybe my brain was kind of starting, that anxiety brain was kind of taking over maybe.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, sure. because your response was one of anger and frustration, you didn't think about it in the moment as an indication. It wasn't like my body's telling me it's time for my meds again. It's instead my body's telling me I effed up. I made a mistake. Exactly. And so I'm thinking about thoughts connected to that emotional response. So if there's something about, You having been activated and being unaware or you feeling not in control of your symptoms, what is the consequence of that for you? Like, what would it mean if you weren't in control or if you were activated and couldn't identify it soon enough? What does that say about you and your mental health or say about you as a person? What does it say about you and your future? You know?

SPEAKER_02:

So. Like feeling out of power, out of control, sorry. So feeling out of control when there's something happening that I'm not maybe privy to and feeling like a loss of power. Like I have a loss of power over it. How does, what are my automatic thoughts you're saying?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's more, sorry, I should be clear. And I piled way too many questions on you. Let's slow down and say, let's, okay. You're having an experience that reminds you that you are always having to contend with symptoms of mental health challenges, right? And does this reminder connect to a thought about the future? So if I'm not in control now, what does it say about the future?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say 100% yes, because I've always balanced school for the past, what feels like a decade. I've always like, rocked out either two part-time jobs and school full-time or work full-time and school full-time and excelled in both things and

SPEAKER_01:

have been

SPEAKER_02:

able to manage relationships or what I thought was managing relationships in a healthy way and balancing school and work and doing you know all the things but now with this kind of new realization And with the biggest piece of my second act of my life, if you will, you know, I'm over 30 now and I'm getting my master's. And I think my professional world is going to expand in a very different and great way. And now I'm wondering, like, what if. OK, so you forgot a water bottle in the bathroom. What if you forget that you have to meet with a patient? on a certain day and they're in like a rabbit hole of anxiety or, you know, and I missed an appointment. You know, these are things that I'm thinking of just right now. Like, yeah, that, excuse me, was definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So a couple of things are coming up. So this is an indicator that I could make bigger mistakes in my profession. There's also like the sense of loss. I can no longer manage all of the things I once could. And I think this is really important because you live in Toronto. I know Toronto well. We're both social workers, social service workers. We hustle, right? It's normal to have multiple jobs. It's normal to... not make a ton of money. Like, you know, for the city we live in, like we make okay money, but then for the city we live in, it's like not a ton. So we're always hustling, you know, and we rely a lot on our brain power and it's remembering details. It's taking lots of notes. It's being present for people. It's all of this kind of stuff. And there's like a lot of pressure to get it right. Right. And I think, yeah, This is like a, I'm glad you're talking about this fear that could, that might be lingering that as I learned to take care of my mental health and as I get older, it's harder to hustle, right? So I can know there's a fear that I can no longer manage all the things like I could. And like, you know, you can make bigger mistakes in your profession. So you connected it to your work life. I'm curious to know about this fear fear or anxiety you might be having about your MSW and about continuing this line of work? Is there something there that you're apprehensive about or unsure about?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I've learned very quickly. So I've done community work, like drop-in work, shelter work, worked on the floor of an emergency department, worked in general internal medicine in a hospital. so I've worked all the way from youth up until Jerry, you know, 65 plus, current disorders, mental health, sex work, you know, lots of marginalization, like populations that are marginalized and et cetera. And I think for me, like that is a big responsibility because we're trying to eradicate and we're trying to, make spaces better and safer for people and more like equitable and i think that i think you know what like you were saying not to just ramble on here like you were saying it's competitive and from working in a hospital i know that if you're not at the top of your game you need to stand out

SPEAKER_01:

You have

SPEAKER_02:

to stand out to be seen. And I mean, I'm lucky enough. I'm, you know, I'm a white skinned person. So unfortunately, well, fortunately for me, I guess, you know, I am seeing more already. But it's still a hustle to be seen and be respected and to get those roles that will make a difference for

SPEAKER_01:

communities.

SPEAKER_02:

I want to always be on my

SPEAKER_01:

game.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

My game, my A game, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So the statement here is I have to stand out to be seen and it's a lot of pressure and responsibility. Okay, I'm going to pause here because we've talked a lot about... you know, triggers, symptoms, being in control, what it means for your profession. I'm going to go back to this earlier set of thoughts here where you said, I should have known better than this. I can't believe that I keep allowing this to happen. What does that mean if you allow it to happen? Well, you said I'm falling back into an unhealthy pattern. And if that's true, what does that say about you? And you said, well, I'm not committing enough to my new patterns and new life. So If you're not committing enough, what would be the long-term consequence of that?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, what just came immediately to my head was complete failure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. In what realm? I

SPEAKER_02:

think for me, because I'm not somebody who wants children, so my profession is kind of my legacy. So I really want to leave something behind that either has made some serious changes for a lot of communities and not that it's even connected to me, but that I've made some kind of impact in some sort of way. So if I do just keep allowing these, if I just don't know better moving forward and what can happen is that I have worked all, what has all this been for then? If I'm not working towards change, positive

SPEAKER_01:

change. Right. So I'll be a complete failure. I won't be able to leave a legacy behind.

SPEAKER_02:

Or legacy. I don't know that I like the word. Well, I don't not like it, but it's, it's, you know, I don't really care if my name's connected to any of that type of work that is, you know, transformative, but just that I want to be able to leave legacy. I want to be able to make some serious transformative changes in a community-based setting and in even a bigger macro-based setting.

SPEAKER_01:

That's

SPEAKER_02:

what all of this has been about, my career. If I'm not committing enough to these new patterns, then I fear that I'm just going to let that fizzle. I'm just not going to get there and I won't have the... motivation and drive to do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I'll be a complete failure. I won't be able to make transformative contributions in my field.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, another part of you also is thinking about rigidity. You said I wish I could just let that rigidity go. Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

yes.

SPEAKER_01:

But I wonder if that's actually super salient in this moment where you forgot the water bottle. Because the rigidity would actually help you remember the water bottle. And if the rigidity refers to when you're being self-deprecating, I'm guessing you weren't thinking that right then or were you was it immediately after you said i'm an effing idiot that you were saying to yourself or you thought at least you know part of you thought i wish i could just let this rigidity go where i i i'm hard on myself

SPEAKER_02:

i'd say it's like pretty 50 50 like i can't believe you're letting this happen but also like why are you so rigid about this right now like Like, you're not even that thirsty, probably, A. And what's the big deal if you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, oh, shoot, I forgot it in the bathroom. I better go get that instead of not even being able to let myself be in a resting space.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I'm glad you said it that way because it makes me think, like, when you say I should just let that rigidity go, you know, my follow-up question would be, what does it mean if you don't let it go? Yeah. And I wonder if the underlying thought here is I'm not allowing myself to be in a resting space.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's exactly it. I mean... I think that's a really, really big piece of all of this is like over the years of, you know, living with it, I've lived with my partner for eight and a half, nine years. And there's so many things that I've learned about myself that there's some, like I do, I like things to have a home in my house, like in our home, you know, I like the toothpaste to go a certain space. So I know exactly where it is. You know, I like the cans in the cupboard arranged a certain way. It's like, I'm trying to really just like... Because those small things are actually very big things where it creates this huge piece of a rigid type of personality trait that is off-putting even to myself. Because it's, you know, there's bigger fish to fry. Yes. You know?

SPEAKER_01:

When you say it's off-putting even to myself and there's bigger fish to fry, the thought here is about... I'm sweating the small things when I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Like I'm really trying to let those small things, I'm learning to try to just let them go because it's very, it actually almost causes like this, like heaviness when I like, and realizing something needs to be put back a certain way. And I like learning to just sit with that feeling and that, that feeling and just like, like, it's not a big deal. This is something we can let go.

SPEAKER_01:

And if you do focus on the small things and you don't let yourself rest, is that so bad? I mean, I know it's not your desired way to be in the world, but it seems like sometimes that's your tendency when it comes to having smaller things like in place, you know, it seems to bring you some comfort. So I'm just wondering, like, Is it the worst or does it bring up again a fear of doing well in the future if you're not able to manage smaller things?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, I think, I mean, if we kind of spin it a little here,

SPEAKER_01:

it's

SPEAKER_02:

one of my biggest, what I would find one of my biggest accomplishments in work and in life is being very detail-oriented. You know, I'm all about lists. I don't forget things if we go somewhere. My partner and I, and even in research, my last placement, I did a research project that will be published soon. And the supervisor was so blown away on how quick and accurately I could gather data, formulate data, and understand it and pull from it. But it's because of that rigidness in that detail oriented thinking is because I'm not going to miss a thing. Nothing will be out of place and it will make sense in the end.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So there's, there's two ways to spin it. You know,

SPEAKER_01:

I hear that. Look. So what I've done is, um, I wrote down the statement. I'm failing at the things I pride myself on.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like details. And, um, Okay, I think we've got, yeah, I think this is a good list. I'm just reflecting, sorry, I took a pause. I'm just like reflecting on how much we've written down here. Do me a favor. Let's take a deep breath together.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So how are you feeling in this moment?

SPEAKER_02:

You know what? The more that I learn about how small things are actually, you know, they say don't make a... Don't

SPEAKER_01:

take me out of a molehill.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I kind of enjoy it, actually, because I do enjoy seeing how small things, like as I move through this, you know, mountain or molehill, if you will, as I go through the screen, I find it actually quite complex and interesting, and it allows me to be more present in the moment of, like, when these things happen, like the situation that we've talked about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I, this is something I can, I will, I know that I reflect on and think like, you are not going to, you're not going to let down a client because you forgot the water bottle.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And, you know, a molehill is akin to catastrophizing. What we're doing here is, We are digging out a valley under what looks like a molehill. Yeah. Underneath it. And we're inverting the whole thing. All right. Checking

SPEAKER_02:

out the foundation.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. So have a look at these automatic thoughts. And think about yourself in that moment where you've forgotten the water bottle for the third time. Which of the thoughts stands out to you as being most prominent or salient? And the one that's really driving a lot of the difficult emotions you're feeling, it's likely going to be one of the ones with an arrow beside it. It's like a sub thought. You know, it's more distilled compared to the original automatic thought. So take a moment and think about which one do you think is really prominent for you here in this situation?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, so... I have two quick answers to that. So the one that I kind of thought a little bit about was the rigidity one, but I also, now that you and I have talked about it a little bit, just when we did, I like that there's two sides to that, that it almost kind of is a positive to do to that but the one that i think is like a very automatic thought for me and is um is harmful is the first one i should know better than this i can't believe that i keep allowing this to happen

SPEAKER_01:

okay so and when you think i should know better than this um You know, we talked a little bit about what it means if you don't or if you make this mistake. And I wonder if the thing that's most prominent that wasn't automatic, it wasn't like... the thing that came up at the surface, but underneath that is that I'll be the sphere, that I'll be a complete failure and I won't be able to make transformative contributions to my field.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It just like snowballs into this

SPEAKER_01:

huge

SPEAKER_02:

thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So would you say that that last statement that I read would be the most significant thing you think that's driving a lot of these feelings? So this slip up happens and, And what gets activated for you is a sense of failure. And like, I'm not going to do well in my field. I'm not going to be able to have like leave significant contributions. I'm messing up all the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I think, I think it's like on the surface, it's like, I should know better than this. I can't believe I keep allowing this to happen, but I think when you, when I think about it more, it's like, you know, I think the reason I'm so self-deprecating in those moments is a hundred, well, I can't say a hundred percent,

SPEAKER_01:

but

SPEAKER_02:

it's most likely to me probably due to feeling like you're failing this, you're failing, like you forgot a water bottle. What else could you forget?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Okay. So I'm going to highlight, I'll be a complete failure. I won't be able to make transformative contributions in my field. And that me highlighting that has moved us from an automatic thought to a hot thought. The hot thought is the one that's the most salient or prominent, the one that drives a lot of the difficult feelings. And so it makes sense to me, you know, where you're feeling determined, but also obsessive and incomplete and incompetent, surprised, frustrated, like these feelings, they're so tied to, it's the bridge between your personal life and what it means for your professional life. So we're going to evaluate this thought that I'll be a complete failure and I won't be able to make transformative contributions in my field. Evidence that supports the hot thought that you have been a failure or that you have not been able to make significant or transformative contributions.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I would think one I can think of one immediately was one of the biggest ones, actually. I... I'm trying to be aware of the time as well, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_01:

No worries. Don't worry about the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I was working in an emergency department, in a section of the emergency department, as I said, in a downtown busy hospital. Yeah. Dealing with a lot of marginalized community members, you know, houseless, underhoused, marginally housed, you know, all these things. Yeah. And many more, of course, facing all the barriers and all the things. Yeah. Through COVID, the space that I was working in in the emergency department, we had to shut down because of social distancing. So after my unpaid leave of absence for a placement to finish my bachelor, I came what I thought was going to be going back to my old role to be a screener for COVID at the front doors. A new job posting came out. I got it. It was the most money I'd ever made, which doesn't matter. It was just a And it was really a big transition in my career. It was a very senior role. Yeah, it was it was great. And then the third wave hit the third wave of the pandemic, which does. So the PTSD is directly related to working in the pandemic. from what I've been told, from what I've shared with therapists, et cetera. So the new world came, the third wave hit, and I wasn't seeing any patients in the community. It was a community-based care position. And I was only in the community two days a week. And then the doctor who I was working with had said, you know, if there's, I think we need to take a bit of a, like a, back step here and not see any more patients until the third wave slows down. So I wasn't needed and I wasn't seeing patients. And for the first three months of my role, 75% of the time I was working from home doing God knows what, just trying to, you know, if one of my clients I was working with, for example, needed housing, I was signing them up for going through every listing in every type of area of the city that I could do, just finding work for myself. But then that runs out and I'm not seeing any new clients. And when the three-month check-in came in for the new role, they said, you know, we don't have much work for you. We'd like you to come back in and do screening again. And this was the same week I finished my bachelor's. And it felt like the perfect out for me. I was so unhappy being at home and I was, I didn't even want to see clients anymore because my mental health was taking this kind of spiral. I felt very unhelpful. Yeah. Almost kind of like an imposter. Like I don't deserve to be trying to help you because I'm not in a space that I'm helping myself right now. And as soon as they said, come back to screen, it was like, perfect. Like,

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, you liked that idea.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I liked, I quit my job. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, as you were talking, Dawn, what I wrote down was, got a great role in a hospital, but was redeployed during the pandemic and felt not needed. Correct. Did I hear you correctly? That's what happened?

SPEAKER_02:

It did. So for the first three months, I was technically being utilized for my role, but But during those three months, I barely saw anybody in the community because if

SPEAKER_01:

the

SPEAKER_02:

doctor had to cancel the clinics, then they wouldn't see me because they were frustrated with the doctor canceling, et cetera. But then the doctor I was working with said, you know, just stay home. You know, we're still getting your new role kind of organized. It's a brand new role. So let's just take it as it comes. Do some work from home. And I wasn't doing anything at home. really, and I'm being paid. So I already felt guilty.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I wasn't, my clients, it was so limited to what I could do for them because they already had social workers on site where they were residing. So it was...

SPEAKER_01:

Sorry to interrupt, but this was a new role that was developed in the hospital, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Brand new. It was...

SPEAKER_01:

And so then when you're thinking about new role pandemic, it's like, okay, they actually have to roll back.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, they did. They rolled it completely back.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So during the pandemic then, so one piece of evidence that supports this idea that I'll be a complete failure and I won't make transformative contributions was, hey, you got a great role in the hospital, but was redeployed and felt not needed. The other thing was your client experiences were not satisfying and you felt guilt about being paid.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Can you give me one more piece of evidence from your life that supports the idea that you could be a failure or that you're not making transformative contributions to your field?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think the idea that it's very unlike me to, I have been, I had been redeployed before, but

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_02:

chose in this new role to quit and A, because I was very frustrated with the role because I like to do my job and I like to be needed. I want to work. I want to work, you know, and what I enjoy doing. And I wasn't doing that. But the old me, you know, pre-COVID would have just taken the screening role and known that I am still there to build my career. It's temporary, you know, ride the wave. But then going back to being a complete failure, it's like, I didn't even think that. I just thought, whatever, I'm going to quit. I'm not getting to do what I like to do instead. And I didn't, and I did, yeah, I don't really know how else to articulate it. But after I quit, I did feel like a failure, like at times, like, why would you not just ride that wave of of redeployment until you could get back to your role eventually.

SPEAKER_01:

So I wrote here, I quit my job and lost my drive. And this is different from my pre-pandemic attitude.

SPEAKER_00:

Correct.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I can see how that feels like evidence. And you know what? I'm not making transformative contributions. I am just, I'm not here for it. I'm done. I'm exhausted. I'm not being meaningful. I'm quitting. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Now let's find some evidence that does not support the hot thought. So evidence that shows that you're not a failure and then, and that perhaps you have made some transformative or significant contributions in your field.

SPEAKER_02:

Like present day or just previously, like any

SPEAKER_01:

time? Yeah. So it could be, it could be any time. It could be in the, for example, it could be, being appreciated by coworkers, being appreciated by clients. Um, maybe you put to get, you were part of something that was significant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I gotcha. Sorry to talk over you. Um, yes. So when I was in a community for the very few times that I was in my role, technically my role was to make sure that these, uh, clients were adhering to their medical treatment plans that the doctor was um giving to them providing to them but um yes so yeah adhering but the doctor that the doctor would they set it up so the doctor had to see that client before i could so a lot of the times If the doctor would cancel very last minute, unfortunately, with the client, they'd be very apprehensive to see me because they're like, oh, what's the point? But if they did see me, even though they already had social workers at their sites, I kind of did a bit of a background check with the clients to see kind of like where they were at with their social workers. And everyone's burnt out. There were no fingers pointed, but I knew that there was some significant things that were being dealt with. So outside of me making sure they were adhering to their medical treatment plans, I was providing intensive social work support. And that, I mean, part of my title was, so I was a, part of my title was counselor. So I provided like some intense support counseling for folks who were dealing with severe COVID isolation. Sometimes when I would meet with them, we would talk.

SPEAKER_01:

And they benefited. Yes. They told you, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, anytime I was leaving them, like any, any clients I saw other than maybe two who were just, were having some grumpy days here and there, you know, it was always like, I can't believe how much you light my day up and how much better I feel when you leave. It's so nice to have someone to talk to who actually listens to me, you know, these kinds of things where, and it's like, I don't expect that, but just to hear that, you're like,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

it's not, some might not think that's this big transformative thing, but

SPEAKER_01:

It is.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, of course. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01:

It absolutely is. It absolutely is. Look, I also wonder, you know, you mentioned that you've worked with many marginalized groups. You talked about, like, sex workers, housing. Did you say homeless and underhoused

SPEAKER_02:

folks? I'm trying to use the language correctly. Instead of homeless, I'm trying to say houseless.

SPEAKER_01:

Houseless, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a new term I've been seeing in the community because some folks do have homes, even though they don't have a structural home, per se.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, okay, okay, yeah. So in working with some of these communities, have there been contributions that are worth noting or we're talking about right now? For example, In the roles you're talking about, you supported clients to adhere to medical treatment plans. You additionally provided intensive social work support and clients vocalized clear appreciation. And I'm thinking like in other contexts, you know, have you given feedback to make a program better or have you supported new outreach initiatives? You know, like have you seen yourself in those kinds of roles?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so when I started in the department in the emergency, we were an eight bed capacity and I found that a lot of the staff were. And again, like that's not a finger pointing that is. They've worked for several years in the field and they're feeling it. And it could be pretty chaotic even to have eight different personalities of really marginally people with severe mental health and addiction. You know, it can be very challenging to manage a space by yourself, single staff.

SPEAKER_01:

This was an inpatient unit or it was a shelter?

SPEAKER_02:

You could technically call it an overnight shelter in the emergency department.

SPEAKER_01:

I see. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I don't want to specifically name.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, I hear you. And if I'm hearing you right, the staff were quite burnt out and you didn't in a particular way. So

SPEAKER_02:

when I came in, one of them had retired. The other one had gone on a bit of a leave and we were the only space in the hospital that once. So when you come into the emergency department, you have, excuse me, like a health record number. Yeah. But when you, transitioned from the emergency department into my space you no longer had a health record number which meant if folks were overdosing in my space or um if they were attacked by somebody in my space they were technically not even a patient of the hospital they were in limbo

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And we didn't have proper documenting access. So the rest of the hospital has this kind of system where they go in, you can see what they call the board. So you see all the patients in the ED and you can make notes, clinical notes. So all the nurses and doctors and, you know, occupational therapists have access to understand the visit. from when they were locked in to when they left. So we were using Microsoft Word to make notes about our clients, which to doctors, that's not even safety protected in any kind of way. And no one else had access to it. So I advocated with the IT team and my first manager at a free. And I got us to be considered on paper a outpatient clinical setting so they had their own health record number to protect them while they were in the space and I also got us full access to the um the documenting system that the hospital uses so that we had full um full access to see their their backgrounds we can see I also got the whole team access to Connecting Ontario so that we could better understand the patient's history to be able to better support them

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

A little bit more about them if needed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Look, this is amazing. So, I mean, it's a bigger story, but you've done an amazing job. Here's what I wrote down. You were in a unique role working with clients with concurrent disorders where other staff were burnt out. You advocated for administrative visibility of patients to enhance their care. Yeah. Okay. So that is amazing. Now, look, I'm going to go back to our hot thought. I'll be a complete failure and won't be able to make transformative contributions in my field, what would be a better alternative to that hot thought in light of some of the things you've said already?

SPEAKER_02:

What would be an alternative thought to like, I'm a complete failure?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I won't be able to make transformative contributions.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I kind of feel like I'm paraphrasing because I think I said it before, but I'll try again. Forgetting this bottle doesn't mean you're going to let a client down. Or forgetting, yeah, I think that kind of sums it up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Forgetting this. Oh, I said forgetting this client. Forgetting this bottle doesn't mean you're going to let your clients down. Look, I'm going to give you a few others and you see if you like them or you want to build on them. So I've already made significant contributions in my field. And it's not helpful to put pressure on myself to outperform my own success. Right, it's kind of like I've done this stuff before and now you're like in this headspace where you're moving forward. So, and there's like this anxiety about a life transition, I think, where you're going into graduate school and you're thinking, I think what needs to be thought about is, hey, I've already made significant contributions in my field and it's not helpful to put pressure on myself to outperform my own successes. Like you're just competing with yourself. Another one that comes to my mind is, You know, we did talk in that automatic thoughts column a lot about your own mental health. And I think it's even if you, I think it's worth saying something about that. So another alternative thought could be, I may, I will always have a relationship with my own mental health.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

sometimes good, sometimes not. And that doesn't define me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Make me less valuable.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. That's no, that's really good. And when I was, I'm not trying to overstep that one. I just don't want to

SPEAKER_01:

tell me

SPEAKER_02:

just like, you know, stripping her down to basics. I think like, It's okay to have moments of forgetting.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It's just plain and simple. The world is not going to crack in half because you forgot your water bottle. It's okay to forget.

SPEAKER_01:

People

SPEAKER_02:

do make mistakes. We all do. We're human. So allow yourself to have those moments of

SPEAKER_01:

forgetting. And I think there's something... that we kind of alluded to before that maybe needs to be put here, which is that I didn't fail at anything. My body is giving me a sign that it needs something, like your medication.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. maybe I was like deep in thought about something else. Like it, you know, really could have just been anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It really could have. It really could

SPEAKER_02:

have. That's why I went back to like the silliness of it at, well, the first one was silly in my mind. Okay. So

SPEAKER_01:

we've got, A number of statements. And I want you to look at these, okay? So I'm going to read them out to you. The situation is, I forgot to bring my water bottle into my bedroom from the bathroom for the third time, and I use self-deprecating language. Yep. You felt surprised, frustrated, careless, ashamed, incompetent, like a failure, guilty, determined, obsessive, anxious, incomplete, and rigid.

SPEAKER_02:

You

SPEAKER_01:

thought, I'll be a complete failure. I won't be able to make transformative contributions in my field. Look at these alternative thoughts and think about them. Which one is the most helpful in this situation? And which one do you believe the most?

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry, the first question. I was reading as you were saying it.

SPEAKER_01:

I apologize. That's okay. Which one do you... which state, which alternative thought do you like the most, which resonates with you and which do you believe the most?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. The one that resonates, resonates with me the most is probably, let

SPEAKER_01:

me just go through again. Yeah. Take a moment.

SPEAKER_02:

really think like i've already made significant like if we're so when we're digging deep into the situation and automatic thoughts because the highlighted automatic thought that you highlighted again it wasn't surface automatic thought but that's what it gets to yes yeah yeah and when i am talking about it that was an automatic thought like actually yeah i thought it'd be a complete failure if i'm failed at this

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

so I think relating it to that I do think for alternative thought like I've already made contributions in my field and it's not helpful to outperform my own success because it's okay to have moments of forgetting

SPEAKER_01:

yes

SPEAKER_02:

like when you bridge that it's like let's not This isn't catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

This is not catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01:

So I am going to highlight that. So I've made significant contributions in my field, and it's not helpful to put pressure on myself to outperform my own successes. It's okay to have moments of forgetting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think I resonated

SPEAKER_01:

on that for a moment. And what I'm going to do is we're going to revisit all of these feelings. and re-rate them in the present moment as you think about this alternative thought, right? This alternative thought is like, I'm amazing. I'm pretty successful. I don't need to compete with myself. And it's okay to have moments of forgetting. Yeah. What is your feeling of surprise?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, honestly, I would still say it's pretty surprising

SPEAKER_01:

because- What number would you give it?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm still comfortable with an eight because it's still, regardless of all the things we've gone through, I still think even knowing and being mindful of our conversation, which I will forever be now, I would still always be surprised if I forgot something three times in a row.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem. So you can give these feelings any rating you like. It's more of an, Right. You've already gone through the big process. Now we're seeing if it affected your feelings and in what way. So go through the feelings and you can feel free to just assign them a number. You don't have to justify it at all. It can be whatever it is. So

SPEAKER_02:

it would be based on new alternative thoughts. Yes. Okay. Okay. I got it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So surprise still ain't no problem. What about frustrated?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm really hoping that I learned to, have that down to about a six because it's still going to frustrate me.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And that's okay. Yeah. So it's going down just a touch and that's totally fine. So you're telling yourself, I've already made significant contributions. I don't compete with myself. It's okay to have moments of forgetting your frustrations at a six, your feeling of carelessness.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know why I keep wanting to make it around the same number. That's okay. For me, like the situation, I would still, even tomorrow, I would still feel like I was being careless if I didn't turn the fan on and forgot to turn it off three times. That feels very careless to me. Even though I know I have alternative positive thoughts about myself. And now I would even almost feel more careless because I have these better thoughts.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, wow. You know, maybe we need to go back to the alternative thought column. Okay, I'm sorry. No, no, no. You're pointing out something very important that you're like, hey, I did this exercise, you told me to, and I'm still rating all these things high. So maybe the alternative thought is something that's just a bit more simple and that is okay. So what if the alternative thought was just, It's okay to have moments of forgetting.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, how about first, why don't I tell you the numbers where I, maybe this would make a difference and you might want to keep that part highlighted. I can tell you the numbers that would significantly change.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Here's what we're going to do.

SPEAKER_02:

If that helps. I don't know. You're the leader here.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's just go. Okay. Let's take the alternative thought the way we used it. So I made significant contributions to my field. I'm going to simplify this. I don't need to worry about shining or standing out.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever had

SPEAKER_02:

to

SPEAKER_01:

worry about

SPEAKER_02:

standing

SPEAKER_01:

out?

SPEAKER_02:

I know, it's just a competition thing, but just let it do me.

SPEAKER_01:

But have you ever had to worry about actually standing out? Yes. I haven't seen you stood out, no matter what, wherever you've been.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's not something you like to say out loud, but I think it's just, I naturally see when I come into a new space and I see how a program is running, I naturally just want to improve it for folks that are accessing that service.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So Don, when you look at this alternative thought, I've changed it now.

SPEAKER_02:

I've

SPEAKER_01:

already made significant contributions in my field. I don't need to worry about standing out. It's okay to have moments of forgetting.

SPEAKER_02:

Now,

SPEAKER_01:

like rapid fire, let's just go through the feelings and you tell me the rating and where they're at. Don't worry about what the number is, but it's when you think about these things where you're like, I'm confident. It's okay to forget. I'm amazing. And surprised still feels high, right? You said it feels like a six? Surprised

SPEAKER_02:

is still an eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight? Frustrated?

SPEAKER_02:

Frustrated is going to be a six.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I'm trying to be less rigid. Careless. Now that we've kind of revamped a little bit of our conversation, I think like probably a three or maybe a four.

SPEAKER_01:

Ashamed. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Ashamed. I'm going to go like a three. Like that's, I do not need to be ashamed for forgetting that

SPEAKER_01:

water bottle.

SPEAKER_02:

Incompetent. Like I'm going to go down to a five because it could go back and forth a little maybe.

SPEAKER_01:

Failure.

SPEAKER_02:

Gosh, like I want to throw that down to like a four.

SPEAKER_01:

Guilty.

SPEAKER_02:

One.

SPEAKER_01:

Determined.

SPEAKER_02:

Seems like a double negative or something.

SPEAKER_01:

I

SPEAKER_02:

think I would be determined to not do that again. So I don't know what that makes my number.

SPEAKER_01:

However determined feels for you. So before you were before you're determined was more like a kind of self-criticism.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Then five.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Obsessive.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm hoping to have that as a seven.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no. When you think it's okay to have moments of forgetting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Successful. Where's your obsessiveness? How obsessive do you feel about this?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Oh my God. Like a, like a two.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay. When you put it like that, I understand. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So anxious in the situation of forgetting to bring your water bottle and feeling like, ah, it's okay. I'm already pretty successful. I'm allowed to be, have moments of forgetting. Where's your anxiety there? I

SPEAKER_02:

would say probably a two. There's going to still maybe be a little bit of something there, but it would be less than incomplete. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Um,

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to go six because I still have these alternative thoughts, but

SPEAKER_01:

I'm still going to go,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, probably like a seven. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So it goes down a bit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Because that's the hardest one for me is the rigidness.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. All right. Done. Another deep breath in. Okay. All right. I'm... One of the things I observed or I'm picking up on is perhaps a desire on your part to make this tool work or want it to show success. And is there a bit of that happening?

SPEAKER_02:

No, there is. When you use the language, you reframed it because I don't think I was understanding the feelings compared to alternative thoughts. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

I see it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it just had to be reworked sometimes.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem. Okay. So I think, yeah, there was a bit of a, there was something going on here. And in my mind, I was thinking, oh, no, Dawn's worrying that my tool isn't helping her. And then she's...

SPEAKER_02:

It is.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Because I don't have to worry about that. So what we're talking about here, right, to reiterate is this situation that led you to use a self-deprecating language, right? You said, I forgot to bring the water bottle into my bedroom for the third time. And... You know, you say, like, I'm an effing idiot. I should know better than this. I'm a complete failure. And there was so much about that that was woven in or wrapped up in your professional life. When we think about the consequence, you were thinking, if I can't do a small thing, how can I do a bigger thing? Right. But actually, like. you don't have to worry about standing out at work because you're good at doing the bigger things and you sometimes mess up the small things and that's fine. Like that inverse can be okay. Right. So when you, so let's, I, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to refine, we'll put another alternative thought in there as well. People can be good at the big things and still be mess up

SPEAKER_02:

yes

SPEAKER_01:

on the small things

SPEAKER_02:

that's one of my favorites

SPEAKER_01:

okay so that's one of the favorites you think

SPEAKER_02:

yeah yeah that's because that's exactly it i don't i have a very good understanding of myself the big things they will not be forgotten and when they have i've been able to manage it it's a manageable forgetfulness

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So look, I'm going to unbow that one. Your two key thoughts, it seems that you really like her. It's okay to have moments of forgetting and people can be good at the big things and still mess up on the small things.

SPEAKER_02:

Love that.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And so a lot of your feelings, the intensity of them go down. I wonder if new feelings show up for you. I

SPEAKER_02:

think it, I think a new feeling for me is that I don't think I realized how, I think the situation is kind of like the tip of the iceberg that you see when you're on the Titanic. And then all the other things are what you see underwater. We don't see that it's underwater. So it's like, I don't know that if I would have willfully and quickly connected this situation. Yeah. I'm a complete failure. I'm not going to do well in my field. Right. it's an automatic thought. It's, it's more layered than that. You know,

SPEAKER_01:

the new feeling here would be reflective actually, where you're thinking about insight and you're connecting things like something kind of benign to something so big.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Are there other feelings that come up for you? Like, I'm curious if there's more like, like if something feels humorous or if it feels silly or,

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or if it feels like if there's a feeling of just like self-compassion for yourself. Sometimes we laugh at ourselves. We're like, oh, my goodness, I'm losing it. But yes, we're like. It's funny, and we're saying it with care to ourselves.

SPEAKER_02:

You couldn't have said it better. I couldn't have said it better myself, my friend. No, that's exactly it. I think just letting that third time still be funny. You silly little bug, you forgot it again. I wish that was the... the outward language that I use the third time, not like, you effing idiot. How dare you? If you

SPEAKER_01:

move to the world and say, you know what? I can be good at big things and still mess up on small things.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

It allows you to access this reflection, humor, gratitude, and silliness.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so true. I love that for me. It also makes me realize that Brittany Moving forward, I definitely am surfacing myself. I don't know why I did that. How funny. The rigidness and incompleteness and determined feelings list, those are things that I really, even though it's okay to have moments of forgetfulness and mess up on small things, I'm realizing how high I feel about messing up on small things.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. That

SPEAKER_02:

is something I definitely think I'll be more insightful of and

SPEAKER_01:

Well done. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm

SPEAKER_01:

going to just stop sharing for a moment. I'll make sure you get a copy of that. And I just want to say thank you to our listeners for tuning in and watching. This has been another episode of the CBT Dive. And we look forward to having you join us again. Until next time. Okay. Take care.

UNKNOWN:

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00:

See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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