The CBT Dive

E13 I experience intense connection and intense loss

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 13

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What do your friends expect from you when you make plans together? Sometimes we might feel like we have to bring only positive energy or always be helpful in some way. In this episode, we gently shift away from assumptions about toxic friendships and begin to consider how low self-worth might contribute to our relationships going downhill.

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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish Hello and welcome to

SPEAKER_03:

another episode of the CBT Dive. Today, I'm excited to welcome Ash, who is an international student here in Winnipeg, where I currently am. He's a major in kinesiology and religion. He's lived here for three years, and he's originally from the city of Mumbai, which is probably about three or four times the size of Winnipeg. He likes it here, but really misses the big city vibes. Does that cover it, Ash?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it does, pretty much.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, great. Ash, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm good, pretty much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't have much to do today, so.

SPEAKER_03:

Great. How are you? I am doing well. I'm curious to know, before we begin, have you ever received therapy of any kind or have you heard of cognitive behavioral therapy?

SPEAKER_01:

I have not. Like, I don't think I have ever been to like a Okay,

SPEAKER_03:

well, so then it's important for me to clarify for you that even though I'm a mental health professional, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist, but I am able to apply some really important tools that can help you with your mental health. And so I know before this call, we have talked already about what this process is going to entail. So I'm just going to share my screen and we'll begin using this tool, okay?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. All right. So you can see my screen, okay?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

Perfect. So the situation we decided... to work on today is basically what happened for you when your best friend started dating someone else. So your best friend was, tell me a bit about her. A girl from school, somebody you were romantically interested in, or just a friend?

SPEAKER_01:

She was just a friend, more like a sister to her. We just met at a random day, at a random like group hanging out situation. And then out of nowhere, we just clicked. And then I guess it's the next day, we just like started hanging out. So, yeah. And like, you know, we were like those kind of people who would be just like in a group of like friends. It would just be like, you know, like those two best friends who just like kiki about like all the other people. Like, yeah, we were like

SPEAKER_03:

those.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay,

SPEAKER_03:

so you guys had a special relationship. You guys joked, you got along. And then when did she start dating somebody else? Or somebody, sorry, not else.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so she started dating this guy like about, I would say beginning of April.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And what happened to your relationship then? Are you guys still friends?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say we are still friends because I kind of wanted to like move on from the whole situation it was just getting too one-sided for me like I was giving my 100 and like she was at a 10 so I was like I don't need this energy I just need to like move on try to make some like new friends

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So look, I want to refine our situation a little bit more. Do you, the idea for us is to identify a situation that brings up difficult feelings for you. So let's say you thought the feelings were animosity, anger, competition, jealousy, frustration, whatever the feelings are. Is it as soon as she started dating somebody or was it when she had less time for you? Which of those two?

SPEAKER_01:

The latter. Yeah. As soon as the summer started, we had plans for the summer. And as they didn't go through, I started getting frustrated. I would say I started getting really jealous and frustrated around mid-May. So it took a while for these things to come up.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So... I like that. So we're talking mid-May and it sounds like some plans got canceled. What were those plans?

SPEAKER_01:

We were going to go to a cabin in Kinley. So yeah, she had to cancel it because she wanted to hang out with her boyfriend's family. I wouldn't even blame her because apparently the family is pretty chill. They party every fucking weekend. So I didn't have any problem with that, but like sure sis, like I had to cancel reservations and shit like that. So I

SPEAKER_02:

was

SPEAKER_01:

just like, sometime before would be good.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So, so you, you got like last minute cancellation. Is that right? I

SPEAKER_01:

would say like two days before.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So here's our situation. It's mid May. our cottage plans or my cottage plans with my best friend were canceled last minute. Now that sounds like more of the situation and the context is that this was your best friend who had recently started dating somebody just like a month before, two months before. So in this situation, when your plans were canceled two days before, what were you feeling? Let's just name all of the feelings.

SPEAKER_01:

I would say rejection, first of all, because that is a huge part of what I feel all the time. Then loneliness. Yeah. I would say frustrated. Taken for granted.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. When you say taken for granted, I'm thinking about a shock. A shorter way to say that. Can I say exploited? I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know. Exploited sounds too dramatic. Yeah. It just sounds like too extreme, you know? Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So taken for granted. I'll put that down. I'm still trying to figure out what that means as a feeling word. But anyway, we'll leave it at that. Taken for granted is pretty self-explanatory. Any other feelings? Like worry about the money or anger or sadness?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I got my lease fund back, so that is not an issue. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So was there a bit of worry? I

SPEAKER_01:

don't think I was worried. I was just feeling rejected. I don't think worry was an issue because I made other plans, but I was just hurt.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, you were hurt. Okay, let's put down hurt. I think that's an important feeling. All right. Okay. So we're looking at this situation in mid-May. You had cognitive plans with your best friend and they were canceled at the last minute. And you felt rejection, loneliness, frustration, hurt, and taken for granted. Let's go through each of these and see if you could help me rate them on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of how intensely you experienced them. So... 10 would be very intense and one would be not intense at all. So how intense was your experience of rejection?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say, uh, seven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Okay. How about loneliness?

SPEAKER_01:

A hard 10. Okay. Yeah. Cause like he was a person I would talk from the starting of the date. Like I was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. So you, I, you know, it brings up another feeling word for me, which is loss.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. How would you,

SPEAKER_03:

how would you rate your sense of loss?

SPEAKER_01:

A nine. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

And what about frustration?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I wasn't too frustrated. I would say like a five.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Feeling hurt?

SPEAKER_01:

Ten, for sure.

SPEAKER_03:

And feeling taken for granted?

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So lots of intensity here. So when you were feeling rejected and lonely and feeling this loss and taken for granted, what did you do? So you canceled the reservation. That was one of the things you did. But what else did you do? Did you have a conversation with her? Did you lock yourself in your room? What happened, like, once this thing was canceled?

SPEAKER_01:

So, like, first day, I was just in my room, wouldn't talk to anyone. The next day, I was getting too lonely, so I just took my car and got out, picked up a friend out of nowhere, and I just went to a park to clear my mind. Yeah, I guess other than that, I just like smoked a lot of weed and I drowned my emotions in it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Smoked weed. Great. And hung out with another friend.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So like, you know, you try to replace someone just to like get an emotional connection with them, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And did you talk to this other friend about what you were going through?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because that's a mutual friend. Ah, I see. So,

SPEAKER_03:

yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So, mid-May, the cottage plans with your best friend were canceled last minute, and you felt rejected. What were you... When you feel rejected, what thought is going through your mind in terms of your relationship? What's just happened to you? What does this mean for you? If your best friend's canceling plans to be with her boyfriend's family, what thoughts were you having?

SPEAKER_01:

So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't think of myself as like a saint or anything, but like, I can brag that when she broke up with her previous boyfriend, I was pretty much there. I was there for her to cry. I was there for her to listen, to drown her emotions in alcohol. I was there. But as soon as she found someone to replace her feelings and concentrate on someone else, she was too quick to move, I guess. So... That made me feel like I wasn't enough just to like, you know, be with her, like be her friend.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. To move on. So I'm just writing this out. So I was there for my friend when she broke up with her prior boyfriend, but was too quick to move on. in brackets for me, when she met someone new. And you said, like, that meant something to you, like, you weren't enough. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And if you're not enough in her friendship, like, what does that make you think about in terms of your value in other relationships or the future of this friendship? What's the consequence if you're not enough for her? I

SPEAKER_01:

would say that I don't hold a lot of pride. Like one moment I would just be thinking that I need to move forward from this person and like the next moment they would text me and be like, hey, you want to hang out? I would forget all the things that I just thought about I'm doing. And then I was just like, yeah, sure, let's do it. So I would think like, yeah, I need to be strong to, you know, my own, I would say, I don't want to say pride, but like, you know, hold myself at a certain standard.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

UNKNOWN:

When it comes to these situations.

SPEAKER_03:

So one of your thoughts here is, You're reflecting on your patterns of boundaries where if somebody disappoints you or lets you down or takes advantage, you could be quick to forgive or sweep it under the rug. And so now you're thinking, maybe I need to change that. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So if I were to put that into words, into its own thought, would you say, I want to make sure it's accurate to what you're thinking. So I need to select, I need to be more selective with my friends or I need better boundaries with my friends. Which one? I

SPEAKER_01:

would say I need, I don't need to, how do I put this? I shouldn't keep my expectations too high. I would say that. Yes. And I certainly do not need to give my 100 towards every relationship. That would make me feel too needy towards them.

SPEAKER_03:

I see. My 100%. Attention to them. So I shouldn't have kept my expectations too high. I didn't need to give my 100% to them. So if I were to invert this, right, your thought is also that I gave too much to them. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

I was too vulnerable, I would say.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And what does it say about you if you gave too much to this friend and it wasn't reciprocated? I

SPEAKER_01:

would say that it was reciprocated at some point in our relationship. We did share emotional stuff at one point. And I guess at that level, she was also at her 100% in the relationship. But I guess people move on. Yeah. Okay. And she was too quick for it, I guess. Yeah. I'm an emotional person. I hold on to shit.

SPEAKER_03:

Ah, okay. You know, so I'm hearing a couple of things from you. I'm hearing that you can move on very quickly and forgive, but that you also hold on to things.

SPEAKER_01:

I am starting to learn to move on quickly Yeah, because there's always things going on in my mind. It's a huge chamber of dark emotions. But I am just starting to not give a fuck anymore, I would say.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So you're saying I want to be able to move on quickly, though I am an emotional person. Yeah. Okay. So I'm thinking here... What's wrong with, do you see there being something wrong with being an emotional person?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think so. But I guess to match that energy, you need another hyper-emotional person to share some, to talk with a lot. And maybe I would need someone with, lesser emotions to like balance the equation out. Okay. So

SPEAKER_03:

look, if you are, if you're in touch with your emotions and you feel things deeply, let's say, what do you think the consequence of that will be? Because you're thinking about changing. And to me, changing is like connected to a feeling of regret, right? And I'm wondering what the thought is there. Like, I'm regretful because or I want to change because if I don't, this will happen. So

SPEAKER_01:

I guess you need change just because you get similar results after every relationship you've been through. So this is a pattern for

SPEAKER_02:

you.

SPEAKER_01:

yeah like not a pattern pattern but like it has happened a few times there's like similar issues so i guess the problem is in me because like it didn't happen once it did happen like a couple of times

SPEAKER_03:

So let's be clear about this. So because we're identifying maybe not a pattern pattern, as you say, but something that's happened a few times. What is it that's happened? Has it been that you've invested a lot of time in just one person and then you've felt taken advantage of? Is that what's happened?

SPEAKER_01:

I wouldn't say. Okay. So I've taken advantage. advantage of is like a huge word. It's as similar as being exploited. I wouldn't say it was too severe. They're just playing with my emotions. It's not too much. I would say that in every friendship or relationship, I always give the best of me. I would give my authentic self. I would be 100. I would expect people to be at that exact level too. But yeah, I guess it's not always reciprocal. Is that a word?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And when you realize that somebody else can't give 100% or their 100% looks different than yours, what is the consequence of that for you? Like, does that make you worry about having friends and maintaining a connection? Is there a fear of loneliness?

SPEAKER_01:

I think, yeah, the fear of losing connection, like not being able to connect like how you used to, like in your previous conversation. So like, I would just be like, I'm starting to lose connection with her on an emotional level.

SPEAKER_04:

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Is it really hard for me to put all these into words? That's okay.

SPEAKER_03:

You're doing great. It's my job to try to put it into words on the page. And so you're doing great. And I think we're taking some time in this column to process what thoughts are connected to your feelings. And just so you know, this column takes the longest out of all of them. So it's okay that we're spending some time here because we're really trying to figure figure you out a little bit here. Okay, yeah, yeah, you're doing great. So the last thing you said was about loss, like, I feel like, in that moment, when you got the cancellation, it was kind of like, I feel, I'm going to write something down and you tell me if this fits for you. I feel like my friend is slipping away and it's happening again. Is that the sentiment? Like you're feeling lost, but it's like a reoccurring loss.

SPEAKER_01:

I would say this is pretty accurate, but like it's happening again with another person.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. Okay. Yes. I think we're on the same page here. So I feel like my friend is slipping away and it's happening again with another person. And when you see that happening again, I wonder if either you have a thought or belief about other people, like for example, people aren't trustworthy, or people are unreliable, or you have a feeling or thought about, sorry, not a feeling, a thought or belief about yourself, like I push people away, or I'm too intense, or I expect too much, or you have a thought or belief about the world, like people will always come into my, oh, sorry, a thought about the future is what I meant. Like this will continue to happen, or I'm doomed to always have this happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I guess I definitely feel all those things that you just said. That's basically all my mind in like one breath.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, wow. Okay. So I want to make sure we write it down in a way that's authentic to you. Okay. But the things that I mentioned were... I'm just going to create three bullet points here. So there's maybe a thought or belief I said about... myself, other people, my future. Okay. So I feel like my friend is slipping away and it's happening again with another person. Now, what is the thought you have about yourself? So this is happening because I'm too

SPEAKER_01:

intense in a relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay,

SPEAKER_01:

good.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, from others. Okay. So this is very good. Give me a sec here. I'm just going to change my font a little bit. All right. Now, other people. Is there a belief or thought about other people when you get this thought that my friend is slipping away again? or slipping away and it's happening again with another person. Your belief or thought about other people? I

SPEAKER_01:

don't like to think bad about the other person, so I usually think it's all my fault. It's basically that. Only a tiny point would be their fault, but I feel like most of the situations, I just push myself into it.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so when you think about other people, you're thinking this is minimally their fault, but mostly on me. And it's mostly on you because you think that you might be too intense in a relationship. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Tell me about this intense pushiness. In what way are you too intense?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I would expect... Okay. Yeah. I guess those are just the requirements. Just, like, talk to me, I

SPEAKER_03:

guess. Yeah, to me, that doesn't sound outrageous. But you're talking about being too intense. I'm wondering if you're hitting on something here that you think you do that you should do less of. And I'm not sure what that is. Is it, like, too much communication? I

SPEAKER_01:

guess, yeah, I do share a lot. Like, if I connect with someone, I would... definitely talk to them about how my feelings for the day, like all my emotional stuff, all the main issues I'm going through, like I would share all of it. So

SPEAKER_03:

yeah. Okay. So far that doesn't sound bad, but I'm going to, I'm going to keep that in that your thought is that I'm too intense in relationships and expect the same from others. In fact, it's not about expecting the same. It's expecting, I think your belief is you expect too much from others, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say just the same. Oh, okay. A little bit less than what I'm giving.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. This in return. Okay. Now tell me about your future. So if you think like your friend is slipping away again, we're talking about an emerging pattern, perhaps. What, If that continues, what does that say about your future? What might the consequence be for your future? I

SPEAKER_01:

do think about it all the time. And I would say it's pretty much like, so it's actually a pattern in my life. People come and people go. And I guess I am getting into terms with it that not all friendships are permanent. And they don't actually have to be. So I guess all the emotional connections I have and will have would most probably will be temporary. And I guess I'm in good terms with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. All friendships are temporary. So not

SPEAKER_01:

all friendships are permanent and don't have to be. Yeah. Like, most of my friendships broke up because like i moved to a whole another world and yeah you lose connections and like even in a city in a small city like winnipeg you lose connections sometimes like people get busy in their own shit and like you forget to call them

SPEAKER_03:

so

SPEAKER_01:

yeah people come and go

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And you know what? That might be a helpful thing to keep in mind as you go from one city to the next and you make connections and people come in and out of your life. That doesn't have to be bad, but it does seem like part of you is struggling with why people leave or why they flow out of your life. It seems like it ends prematurely. So I'm going to come back to myself. The thought is I'm too intense in relationships. And so if you're too intense, I'm wondering what does the other person, like if I asked that best friend or a friend before that, and I say, hey, is Ash too intense? What do you think about that? What would they say to me? I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know. Maybe no. Because I guess it's all in my mind, like, I do think that sometimes I am a little bit pushy with my emotion. Like, I guess it's just exaggerated in my mind about myself. But who knows, maybe the other person would say that, like, yeah, that guy's fucking

SPEAKER_03:

intense. Okay. And that intensity... comes from what? Like, why do you think you have that intensity and other people don't? Is it because you've had difficult life experiences or you feel like you get close really quick? What is it about you that makes things intense on your end?

SPEAKER_01:

I would just say loneliness. I'm pretty like a reserved person. I don't have a lot of people to talk to. So like when I do, I pretty much like empty my words in like this one goal.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so I like that. Okay, so you're thinking here that, I'm just trying to put this into words here. So you said you're reserved and then you meet someone and you empty, put all your eggs in one basket.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but after a while, after we have connected, after at least five, six times we've met and established a proper emotional connection,

SPEAKER_02:

then

SPEAKER_01:

yes. But I obviously did not open up that easily.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I wonder, as somebody who doesn't open up easily, what does it mean for you when you lose a friend after you've opened up? Like, what kinds of thoughts do you have then? Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

it's just like another egg hunt. Like, you just gotta filter out two people and then, like, find another one to push all your emotions at. That's how I think about it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. I guess I'm thinking... You know, originally, when you said, you know, you were describing your friend and you were there for her when her first relationship ended. And then she found somebody new. And one of the thoughts for you was, you know what, hey, I'm not enough. And I'm wondering if the I'm not enough part filters in here where you feel like somebody's slipping away.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. The feeling of being not enough is usually there in my mind all the time. When I'm hanging out with someone, I will always think about that part. Because you run out of things to keep them entertained with. And I guess if you don't have content to keep them entertained, at some point they're going to get bored and go away.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So people get bored of me. I

SPEAKER_01:

wouldn't say bored of me. I'm a pretty chill person. Well, what do you

SPEAKER_03:

think is happening here? What I'm hearing is you're saying like, it's my job to keep people entertained or they'll get bored.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03:

Like,

SPEAKER_01:

I just need to keep, keep my hype level at a certain point. Like they don't get, to down and be like, okay, I guess this is not going anywhere. I need to go home or something like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So this is like really valuable because it tells me about what you see your role as being in the context of a relationship where you're thinking, okay, it's my job to keep people entertained and keep their spirits up. So if you can't do that, what does that say about you? Like that you're not good at being a friend or. I wouldn't

SPEAKER_01:

say not good at being a friend. I was just like, I was just thinking that I'm not doing my job as a friend. Cause like, if I'm getting too lame or boring, then I'm going to call me back. Cause like, they need someone who gives up a certain type of energy. Like they could come back and like hang out with you another time. But if I'm all old, but if I'm like all boring and like sad all the time, obviously they don't want that vibe with them.

SPEAKER_03:

So it's not just, I'm not enough. More specifically, I didn't maintain their interest and energy or maintain their interest so

SPEAKER_01:

ash is a nice word

SPEAKER_03:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

uh energy is a nice way to put there yeah

SPEAKER_03:

instead of interest or both

SPEAKER_01:

i think you should keep both

SPEAKER_03:

okay yeah so i didn't maintain their energy Sorry, maintain their interest or fuel their energy. So I'm going to ask a question here. There's a lot of automatic thoughts here. And you'll notice some are like the ones that you came up with right away. And then we dug a bit deeper. And where we dug deeper, I put little indents and arrows to say, okay, for each of these, if this is true, what does that mean? Or what does it say about you? What's the consequence of that? What does this potentially say about yourself, others, or the future? So it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when your friend canceled the plans last minute, A lot of your feelings were being driven by this thought here. I'm not enough. I didn't maintain their interest or fuel their energy. Is that

SPEAKER_01:

right? Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

You're pretty good at

SPEAKER_03:

this. So... With all the thoughts here, like I'm too intense in relationships or I gave too much and it wasn't reciprocated, not all friendships are meant to last. The one that really is prominent when it comes to your sense of rejection, loneliness, loss, frustration is I'm not enough. I didn't maintain their interest or feel their energy. That's the main one, yes?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So that thought is what we're going to call the hot thought. Okay. It's bolded because we're going to evaluate it. So when you say I'm not enough, it's also like I failed. Right. Is that part of it?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I just want to put that in there. So I failed. All right. Now, is there evidence to support this idea in your life? So we're looking for actual evidence in your life that says you haven't been enough. you failed and that you weren't able to maintain someone's interest or fuel their energy. Has someone said that to you or do you know that to be true?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, it's like as a basic kid, you obviously keep hearing that from your parents all the time. Oh, what

SPEAKER_03:

do you hear from your parents?

SPEAKER_01:

Like the same thing, but like you're not doing enough. you are slacking a lot. And yeah, there's similar things, but like every time in different contexts, obviously.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. So if something happens, it's always your fault. That's a message you've gotten.

SPEAKER_01:

Most of the time. Yes. And I do accept to them. Cause I, I don't know. I just like in my mind, it's just like, end up thinking, yeah, it's definitely your fault.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And so I just want a little bit more concreteness here. So when we talk about messages from your parents, what's something that they would blame you for, that they would say, hey, Ash, it's because you didn't do enough or this is your fault?

SPEAKER_01:

I was supposed to graduate this year, but I'm not going to for at least another three semesters. Like that thing has been bugging the way my parents are looking at my image right now.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So completing school at a different pace, parents make me feel like a failure. Is that right? I

SPEAKER_01:

mean.

SPEAKER_03:

Or like I'm not doing enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, more like that. Like I'm not doing enough and that's less my parents saying, like getting mad at me, that's making me feel like I'm not doing

SPEAKER_03:

enough. Okay. So here we're saying you're completing school at a different pace and it's actually a slower pace than what they had expected, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Parents make me feel like I'm not doing enough. And it's their, the way they talk to you that makes you feel like a failure, their tone. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, sure. But like, it's not always like that. Like we do have good talk sometimes. Of

SPEAKER_03:

course, of

SPEAKER_01:

course. But yeah, most of the time I do feel like I'm down, like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Okay. So look, we're talking about a sense of being a failure and this thought that's brewing. And we're thinking about it specifically in the context of friendships. But I think this piece of evidence is important. So I'm including it where you also get the sentiment of not being enough or being a failure from your family. Now, they're great at other times, of course. You guys have good moments. You love them. But, you know, part of letting them down feeds this idea that you failed. You mentioned that this has happened with other friends you've had, and I wonder if we should enter that into evidence. Like, who was another person who kind of drifted away from you where you felt like it was your fault because you didn't maintain their interest?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I have a perfect example for this, okay? So this one time... late winter like around march or something my friends went to see you know those northern lights aurora by like the prairies yeah so like my actually my cousin and his girlfriend and his roommate they went to see the aurora light and like out of nowhere i woke up around 3 a.m and i got a call and he's like i just got um my car got impound it's still hurt And it's, like, 3 in the night. And I wasn't driving at that point. Like, I couldn't drive for, like, I was just, like, practicing my car around the neighborhood. Like, I couldn't perfectly drive to go, like, on a highway. So he was, like, can you come pick me up, like, around 40 kilometers away? So I'm, like, okay, let me go ask my daddy. Like, if he's awake, he could drive me there. Like, I could pick you up. So I asked him, and, like, he said no. Because I, one... Our car was blocked in the parkway and he didn't want to deal with it at that time. And two, he does not have a good license to drive in Canada. He didn't think it was a good idea to go out on the highway during the night when he's not even fully woken up. And it's the

SPEAKER_03:

prairies. Your dad is from India.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And we're talking about driving in the prairies in Canada, which is like, it's a different winter landscape altogether. We're talking.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was pretty snowy at that time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Snowy and about minus 20, minus 30, you know, something like that degree Celsius. So they wanted you to pick them up and you weren't able to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I would, I would take kind of like, it was my fault because like, When in the previous times I did get into circumstances where like I needed to get picked up urgently, like getting into fights and shit, like he was there for me. But like at this time when this happened, like I couldn't go and pick him up at a point where like he was really disappointed in our friendship. And I would say that I knew that guy pretty much my whole life. We grew up together. He's from the same Jamaat Khana back home. So, like, we pretty much were friends all our lives. And, like, this thing happened. And then the next day, boom, like, all contacts lost. And, like, I don't think he wants to rekindle our friendship again. And it's been, like, a few months. And, like, I've come to terms with it. And like my first, my best friend, like she did help me get over these feelings. Like

SPEAKER_02:

you

SPEAKER_01:

are enough. And like, I don't, you don't need his friendship anymore.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure. But you know what? That's nice to say, but it did leave an impact, right? You're talking about somebody who has been there for you and he left the relationship feeling disappointed in you. He cut you off completely. So there was no, like, he sounds like somebody who needs to work on being more accountable, but we can't really change him. And we know, I'm thinking here about what the impact was on you. And if he cut you off, I imagine it made you You feel like you didn't do enough or a part of you feels like it was your fault.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Is there another example of where you have felt like you're not enough or that, you know, you were in a, I'm curious about friendships and social situations where you feel like you didn't provide, you didn't bring enough energy or you didn't maintain someone's interest.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I think like that is just a thought in my mind. Usually like when I, if I, if I'm hanging out with the person, like I have been hanging out with for a while, it's usually a bash. Like we would usually have fun, but. You

SPEAKER_04:

would usually have fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But like, you know, there is always that feeling that like, you know, you're losing the, grab it quickly. It's like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. So this is what I'm interested in. So it's not that, So at the very root, the feeling is like, I'm not enough. But just above the root, there's something that you tell yourself you have to do to prove your worth. And that is to maintain their interest. So I'm thinking about, is there any evidence that you have in your life, an example of when you couldn't maintain someone's interest did someone say hey ash like you're kind of boring or like i'm tired of talking to you i'm leaving or is that how you understood another friend pulling away where you were like i guess you know they found someone more interesting

SPEAKER_01:

okay so i would say like this happens usually at a date because i obviously you're meeting for the first time and like you don't have a lot of things to like connect that and

SPEAKER_04:

like

SPEAKER_01:

you would get bored so like i guess I guess I get these feelings from going on dates and, like, them not being pretty good. And, like, I'm getting a feeling that I'm getting boring.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I've gone on dates and felt like it was boring. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I know it's not my job to keep both of us entertained, but like, you know, you do feel kind of responsible. It's like not going anywhere and you just are both silent.

SPEAKER_03:

So this is partially my fault.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Look, that is, it's not like, you're not saying anything outrageous, right? You're, you're talking about How your beliefs have been formed over time. Now we're going to, okay, so the evidence that supports your hot thought that you're not enough, that you don't maintain other people's interest is, okay, you've gone on dates and felt like it was boring. This is partially my fault. I'm completing school at a slower pace and that makes me feel like I'm not enough in my parents' eyes. You had a friend who went to go see the Northern Lights. Car broke down. They wanted you to pick them up. They've been there for you in the past. You weren't able to be there for them for good reason, but they cut you off. So you felt like you failed in that relationship. Now I'm going to go over to the next column, and I want some evidence that does not support the hot thought. So we're looking for evidence here that you are enough. and that you do maintain people's interest or you do bring enough energy to relationships. So where have you learned that you are enough or that you do have a lot of energy? I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know. I don't think I have anything that comes up to my mind because this quarantine has been such a bad time. I've not been thinking any positive things about me in my mind. So I don't have anything to

SPEAKER_03:

say. So this last friend, the one who you had a bit of a falling out with when she canceled plans, how long were you guys friends? Because you guys talked every day. So how long was that for?

SPEAKER_01:

Eight months straight. Every day for eight months. But then it started getting up and down since January. Cause like, yeah, by that time she was like out of her, I would say excess health and like was ready to move on. And then like, yeah, around that time she started dating and like getting her emotions to love. Sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I'm hearing, so, okay. You're talking about how she began splitting her time and you feeling her pull away. But I think that, If one of your thoughts is, one of your main thoughts is, I don't maintain other people's interest, right? Well, my friend and I spoke every day for eight months is evidence that you did maintain somebody's interest, right? So let's try to honor that piece. Are there other kinds of evidence like that where you've maintained interest of other people or people have enjoyed your company and they've said so?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, yes, people usually tell me like I'm a blast when I'm getting drunk with them. So I guess I do give out good energies at some point because I would say when I'm alone, like these kind of thoughts usually come up when I'm alone and like out of weed. And like, other than that, if I'm hanging out with someone, like I make sure that all the things that come out of my mouth are like positive and like entertaining and Because, you know, you don't want to be a buzzkill all the time. All the time? You're

SPEAKER_03:

talking about almost always being fun and saying positive things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but, you know, I guess most fun people are kind of depressed all the time. And it's just a mask.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, okay. I mean, you know, that's another belief now. So I can go back to automatic thoughts and adjust that, but I'm not going to, but it's an interesting thing you're saying. So evidence that does not support the idea that you don't maintain people's interest. So in other words, evidence that you do maintain people's interest and bring good energy is that you try to say positive things when you're in social situations. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So my friend and I spoke every day for eight months. People have told me I'm a blast when we're drinking together. I try to say positive things when I'm in a social situation or when I'm in social situations. So look. I want us to look at the next column, which is the alternative thought, a more balanced thought. So instead of saying to yourself that I'm not enough, which puts the blame all on you, or I didn't maintain somebody else's interest, which is all on you, or I brought bad energy or I didn't fuel their energy, which is all on you. What's something else you could say to yourself that you think would be more helpful?

SPEAKER_01:

I guess if I'm not blaming myself, blaming them would make me feel a little bit better. I don't want to villainize anyone in my eyes. I always think at the back of my mind that they might come back into my life and I don't want to be a salty person when they do. I don't want to villainize them, make a bad image of them in my head.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure. I see. So you don't want to villainize them. And so you start to think, well, you know, it makes more sense for me to blame myself. So we have to think about a way to be compassionate toward them and you, right? And I'm wondering here if it's not that you didn't maintain their interest, but as you had said earlier, it's normal for other people to, you know, diversify their friend groups.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I'm going to say here, I brought good energy and was interesting, but it's also normal for people to diversify their friend groups. Now, this makes me want to ask you another question. Do you tend to have one good friendship at a time? Is that what makes it a bit more intense?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I would prefer one good friend rather than 10 okay friends.

SPEAKER_03:

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I am that kind of a person.

SPEAKER_03:

And so here's the thing. That doesn't seem to be working completely for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's not. Right?

SPEAKER_03:

And so because you're not wanting to trash these people, which makes me think they're not all bad, but it makes me think there's something we need to tell ourselves about the pattern. So instead of saying I'm not enough or I didn't maintain their interest, it's maybe that I need to invest in more people at the same time or something like that. I don't know. What do

SPEAKER_01:

you think? Yeah, I just need to find different people to keep myself busy. I guess that's what you're trying to say.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I'm thinking more about setting yourself up for success, right? So you have a really good friend, but then there's some things you... you also do with other people. So I'm thinking about like, hey, it's not that I'm not good enough at maintaining their interest. It's healthy for us to spend time with other people. So we both need to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, okay. But I guess like in that situation, and again, this all happened during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_02:

That's true.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so, like, I cannot, like, I did try to, like, meet up a few friends from, like, Grindr and get in there. But, like, you know, it's hard to find connection in these times. Yes. And you don't have anything else to think about if you're not meeting new people. So, like, you just keep repeating all these things in your mind. And, like, on repeat. And, like, you just get stuck.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. So, you said a really important thing here that I'm just writing out. So it's hard to find connection because of the pandemic, not because of my personality.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, so like I am, I do have a party circle. Like I have friends that would only invite me if there's a party. So like that is a good time to like meet up with new people and like make connections and stuff. But, you know, since there's a pandemic, like, there are parties where, like, I would prefer to stay home at these times. Like, I don't want to be mingling around in this climate. So, yeah, the only thing to do is, like, find people online or just stay home.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. No, I hear that. I hear that. So... Here are the thoughts we have so far, and I'm going to encourage you to think of anything else you want to add that maybe speaks to you more, because some of this has been my language. So you're saying to yourself, you're feeling this friend is slipping away. She canceled plans. She's going to be with her boyfriend's family. You think immediately, I'm not enough, and I didn't maintain her interest or fuel enough energy. Alternative thought, I brought good energy and I was interesting, but it's also normal for people to diversify their friend groups and supports. Another alternative thought, I may need to invest in multiple deeper friendships. It's good for us to have time together and time apart. The third alternative thought is it's hard to find connection because of the pandemic, not because of my personality.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, also, like, I am kind of a reserved person. Like, for me to... call someone a friend friend and like actually maintain a good long conversation with them I at least need to meet them at least three times and once in a public setting yeah yeah you know you cannot like just connect with someone like the first time you make and also to like share someone to share your feelings with someone it takes some time also reciprocation, like, you know, like you give a certain type of a vibe that initiates an emotional environment. And if they're not giving the same energy, like it's just one way and you're talking to a wall.

SPEAKER_03:

So here's a question. Would one of your alternative thoughts be if the energy feels one way, it's my responsibility to pull back?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, because if they're not already giving their 100, I don't think there's a point to ask for it. The best thing you could do is just take a step back.

SPEAKER_03:

So if I notice that someone isn't reciprocating the energy, I should step back. Now, I'm thinking about, so in this friendship, are you saying you should have maybe stepped back earlier? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. At certain points, I should have just kept something to myself and not rush into it, I would say. Because it was kind of like we met and we're just like talking about our childhood traumas and shit out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_03:

Ah,

SPEAKER_01:

yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So tell me a bit about this, because it seems like in a future friendship or relationship, you want to do it a bit differently. You said something about rushing or not rushing. Can you tell me a bit about that? Are you saying here that you're telling yourself that... in future friendships, I want it to be less intense or I don't want to share as much as soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Like, I guess like, I'm just trying to make myself not always be an oversharer, I guess. Like, like if I'm, if I'm like at a certain level with you, I'm going to be, actually pretty much straight up about my emotions, but like, cause I, I would say like, you don't, I just need a hint that you're here to listen to me and I would pour my heart out. It's like that. And

SPEAKER_03:

this friend was there for you, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think

SPEAKER_03:

you misread that. So here I've written down your alternative thought, which is in future relationships, I'll get hurt less if I share personal trauma at a slower pace. But it seems like she was there to listen to you, right? And your

SPEAKER_01:

thought was when she...

SPEAKER_03:

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03:

No, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I was just thinking, you're telling yourself, I didn't maintain her interest. And you're also thinking about other relationships where you're like, I, you know, I didn't provide enough. I failed as a person. And so I'm thinking, what's an alternative to that, right? Is it, um, I should share less. I don't know. I mean, you could, that could be an alternative thought. I don't think it's fair to you. Cause I think it blames you again. I

SPEAKER_01:

just like, I just need to keep myself busy. Like, and not come, not just like think about friendships and everything. Just like the things in your life.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

no

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_03:

you're you're

SPEAKER_01:

saying no no

SPEAKER_03:

you're saying that you're talking about what to do you're back in the behavior column you're saying when bad things like this happen i need to keep myself busy and you could do that but you did that already you smoked weed and hung out with another friend right here The thought remains that I lost the friendship or the person slipped away because I didn't maintain their interest, right? So what's another way of thinking about that? To say, okay, I brought good energy and I am interesting, but it's also normal for people to have multiple friend groups and supports. You can see how that's an alternative to I'm not enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Right? I

SPEAKER_01:

agree, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

So of the thoughts in this column, which do you like the most? Which one do you believe the most? Which one do you think speaks to, is a good alternative to, I didn't maintain their interests or provide enough energy? Take

SPEAKER_01:

a moment to read them. I'm a procrastinator at heart. So I would say the last point about the pandemic, like I would just like to blame everything on the pandemic in my mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Also, the third point kind of relates to me.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I'm going to read those two out. So the last one is it's hard to find connection because of the pandemic, not because of my personality. Now, I know it's not always going to be a pandemic, so we could also change it to it's hard to find connection because In general, it's not because of my personality. Frank, you're an international student. You're in a new city. You have moved

SPEAKER_01:

here. I mean, I'm not new. It's been three years already.

SPEAKER_03:

You're exploring

SPEAKER_01:

multiple communities. Better connections.

SPEAKER_03:

Sure. You mentioned that it's hard to make friends and make connections. And... Part of it's the pandemic. And you mentioned like meeting people through school and also Grindr and that it's a pandemic. And you talked about dates being challenging, right? So there's a number of things going on that say to me that in your experience, it's hard to find connection in general. And it's not just because of my personality. Now I'm convincing you of the thought that you picked, which I'm not sure why we're doing. What do you mean? You liked that alternative thought, that it's hard to find connection in general.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Or because of the pandemic. And it's not because of my personality. You believe

SPEAKER_01:

in that thought? I guess. okay so it's hard for me to find a connection because like I'm a reserved person but like at a certain point like if I'm if like we're taking the friendship to a certain level like yeah at that point like I think we would vibe a lot after a certain point but like until then it's hard for me to find

SPEAKER_03:

someone yes

SPEAKER_01:

like that yeah

SPEAKER_03:

okay so it's hard for me to find connection well here's the thing What we're saying is that other people might have multiple friend groups. And for you, that might be tough because it takes a while to get to know people. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I guess so. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So it's hard to find. I'm going to edit this. It's hard to find multiple connections.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Simply because it takes a while to get to know someone. It's not because I'm boring. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So we've highlighted that thought. It's hard to find multiple connections simply because it takes a while to get to know someone. It's not because I'm boring. The other thought you really like is I brought good energy and was interesting, but it's also normal for people to diversify their friend groups and support. Of these two thoughts, which one do you think is a good alternative to your hot thought? Which one do you believe is the most?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the third one. Okay. Yeah, I do need to invest my time in different social circles.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. So I brought good energy and was interesting, which is good. to hear, right? But it's also normal for people to diversify their friend groups and supports. Now, when you read that thought, that alternative thought, how would you rate your sense of feeling rejected?

SPEAKER_01:

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03:

On a scale of one to 10, how would you rate your experience of rejection? If you're thinking, This friend is slipping away. But it's not because I didn't maintain our interest. It's actually just because it's normal for people to diversify their friend groups and supports. Right? You've seen it happen before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I would say, like, I don't know. Sick.

SPEAKER_03:

Still there. Yeah. But a little less.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Because rejection is pretty much always in my head. Yeah. And the same with loneliness. I would be surrounded with a lot of people and I would still be the loneliest fuck in the room. So I would say that at a seven, because some part of my mind would be busy.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So loneliness and rejection kind of plague you. But with this new thought, you're reducing the intensity just a little bit. What about your sense of loss? How would you rate that when you think about, you know, I wasn't specifically rejected, I brought good energy and I was interesting, but it's also normal for people to diversify their friend groups and supports. Where's your sense of loss on a scale of one to 10?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know, like five.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. And frustration?

SPEAKER_01:

Zero.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Hurt?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. Zero.

SPEAKER_03:

Really? From 10 to zero?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because if I already have people to keep myself invested in, why would I be hurt? Okay. And then taken for granted? I don't know, taken for granted comes for me by the intensity of the situation. Like if I'm feeling good, I wouldn't feel taken for granted. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I know. I totally do. I imagine in this situation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I was saying that being taken for granted is like an emotion that That is in my mind all the time, but it is not always there. It needs some kind of simulations. Yes, it gets triggered or activated. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

So when you think of this alternative thought, your friend canceling on you last minute, I think it's okay to feel taken for granted, but I'm guessing the intensity might go down just a bit.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

when you recognize that, okay, you know, she's been giving me a lot of her time and it's normal for her to divide that time up between other people now. So where does your sense of being taken for granted go? Is it still at an eight? Does it go up higher or does it go a bit lower? I

SPEAKER_01:

would think like it would just go down a couple of

SPEAKER_03:

points. Okay. So six,

SPEAKER_01:

like a five, six. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Do any new feelings come up for you?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. I think as soon as I'm going to turn this video call off and I reflect about it in my own mind, I am going to come up with a lot of feelings.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah? What

SPEAKER_01:

kinds of feelings? Mostly that I need to move the fuck on. I cannot just keep thinking about this all the time. Like find something new to keep myself busy.

SPEAKER_03:

So is that like, okay, so that's a new feeling is motivated?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Or determined? Yeah, I guess talking about it with getting it off my chest would make me feel motivated and like move on from it.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So maybe motivated... resolved could be a feeling.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, you know, some

SPEAKER_03:

shanti.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, exactly. I love that. I can't write that out, but resolved in shanti. Look, I also wonder if, you know, if your sense of frustration and hurt goes down, it makes room for something else. Like, I'm thinking like curiosity, sadness, empathy, self-compassion. Do any of those show up for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Towards whom?

SPEAKER_03:

Feelings that come up in yourself. So it could be empathy towards somebody else, like your friend, or it could be self-compassion towards yourself for just like experiencing this loss or finding yourself in this situation again.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know how to answer that. Most of the time, I just think of myself in a negative tone in my head. I'm just always hating on myself for some reason. Empathy for myself and self-compassion for myself seems a lot of work at this point.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so if it's not showing up for you, then I won't write it down, no problem. So let's have a quick look at this situation. You know, mid-May, you had cottage plans with your best friend and they were canceled at the last minute. She decided to spend time with her boyfriend's family. You felt rejected, lonely, lost, frustration, hurt, taken for granted. Rejection and loneliness? went down just a little bit, loss went down by half, frustration went from five to zero, hurt went from 10 to zero. And what made the big shift was shifting your hot thought. So your hot thought was, you know, I'm not enough and I didn't maintain the other person's interest or fuel enough energy. And your alternative thought is actually, I brought good energy and was interesting, but it's also normal for people to have multiple friend groups and supports. And it made way for some new feelings, some shanti, some resolve, some motivation. I'm wondering from your perspective, so this exercise is done. I wonder if Like, what are you left with? How do you feel? What is your reflection on this exercise? And does it make you, where does it leave you? I'm going to stop sharing screens so we can just chat about it for a minute.

SPEAKER_01:

So I just feel like I have some work to do about myself. Okay. Or investing myself into another relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_01:

what work is that? I have never, like, okay, so all my life, I've never had, like, a constant person, like, a constant friend. Everything was temporary. And I have never, like, you know how they say, like, you should be comfortable at least being yourself for a while? Like, I'm not. Like, I cannot be with myself. Like, I need some kind of a distraction to keep myself busy or keep thinking.

SPEAKER_03:

So that's an excellent observation because the way I'm hearing that is you actually feel like you're recognizing that there's some discomfort around who you are, which is about your identity, your personality, the person you put forward. You're a bit uncertain about it or uncomfortable with it. And that bleeds into So the intensity of your friendships might be a way to cover up something else that you're running from or you're uncomfortable from, or that you're using friendships or the intensity in friendships to get constant reassurance because you're not feeling good or great about yourself. Do you

SPEAKER_01:

think that that's accurate? Yeah, I would say the latter

SPEAKER_03:

here.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah, I would say the latter part is pretty much accurate. So it's like... I guess in a friendship, I always rely on people saying like, oh shit, you did a good job. Like, you know, you always need someone to like. Affirm

SPEAKER_03:

you, reassure you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Praise you. Yes. Like, yeah, I'm doing a good job. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Ash, it's been really great. to have you on this show. Thank you. You're very welcome. And don't go anywhere. You and I are going to debrief in a minute and I'm just going to stop the recording and just thank our listeners. Thanks everyone for listening. We hope that this has been helpful for you and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at thecbtdive.ca. You can also listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts. To follow Rahim on social media, check out ladyativan.com. See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

Host