The CBT Dive

E14 What it means for a queer woman to close the door on having children

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 14

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While gay men often toss out their straight-world rule book and start anew, queer women don't always have the same luxury. Women are socialized, encouraged, and pressured to be so many things, including maternal. In this episode, Telsa considers what it means to be with a partner who doesn't want children. As a queer woman in her mid-thirties, she's torn between choosing love and the finality of closing the door on having her own children, especially when all her peers are talking about diapers and strollers.

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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to demand mystify what therapy can look like and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion. All

SPEAKER_02:

right, welcome to another episode of the CBT dive. Today, my guest is Telsa, who is a queer woman living in Toronto. living her dream in many ways until we talked recently and she told me about some difficult conversations she was having with her partner. So we're going to dive into one of those for our session today. Telsa, welcome.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for having me,

SPEAKER_02:

Rahim. No problem. Let's start with what do you know about CBT or what drew you to volunteer to be a guest on the show?

SPEAKER_03:

So I don't know much about CBT, but I have had a couple of patients that have had enormous success using CBT to navigate through different challenges. And I do know that it is a thought process, a behavioral process that will hopefully help me navigate through, like I mentioned earlier, some challenging internal conversations that I'm

SPEAKER_02:

having.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, great. You know, your definition is pretty good. And you mentioned patient. So I like, I think that's important for viewers to know that you also work in healthcare, you work with people, you're supporting people in ways that are not specific to mental health. But of course, people talk about their mental health to you all the time, do they not?

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. I think I think most of my patients are navigating one, if not many different mental health issues or different circumstances that are challenging them. So they've had success through CBT and I'm hopeful that I'll have the

SPEAKER_02:

same. Okay. Well, here we go for, for our one trial session. I have one session to sell you on this. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen and, And it'll just take a moment. All right, so what I have here is, can you see that thought record on your screen?

SPEAKER_01:

I can.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so the situation we've identified is you thinking about potentially closing the door on having children. We talked a bit about this before recording today, and we were uncertain if the trigger for the difficult feelings is a conversation with your partner, or if it's just when you're left with your thoughts. And one thing you were quite clear about was the impending conversation with partner makes it, it creates some urgency around this topic, but you're unsure yourself what you want to present in the conversation. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. So some context would be, you know, you're 35, you're in a same sex or same gender relationship. And the two, you and your partner have been talking about, you've been having conversations about the future. Is there any other context you think I need to know or we need to know?

SPEAKER_03:

I think there's the biological clock, right? So that puts some urgency on the conversation. I think that we're very happy and comfortable where we are right now. And sort of future planning, because of our biological clock, makes this conversation a little bit more urgent than we would like.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yeah. And are you of similar age to your partner?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, she's a year older than I am.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So we're talking about similar clocks. Correct. Okay. All right. So let's pinpoint a time when you might actually be sitting with yourself and thinking about whether or not you want to have children. When does it typically tend to be?

SPEAKER_03:

Usually walks in the park.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So seeing other families, seeing other children. Yeah. Conversations with friends around the topic of having children, challenges with conceiving, make me sort of reflect internally of, do I want this lifestyle that they are trying to create? And then also the beautiful image of the families in the parks leaves me thinking, do I want that? So Those would be probably the two most common times, sort of walks in the park and conversations with friends in a similar age bracket.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. That's great. So I put that right into the situation. So potentially closing the door and having children, but it's really a conversation with yourself during a walk in the park when you see other people's families and you have conversations with others about their challenges with conceiving. And the people who you're having conversations with who are talking about pregnancy or challenges, are they of a similar age to you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. All right. So... I'm thinking about this dual situation. You're either talking to somebody who's having trouble conceiving or you're having the walk in the park and you see other families. What feelings come up for you in those situations?

SPEAKER_03:

I guess we'll start with the park walk. A little bit of jealousy. Yeah. A little bit of... Fear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

What

SPEAKER_03:

else? Excitement.

SPEAKER_02:

About the possibilities?

SPEAKER_03:

Of the, you know, having that, that, you know, I guess family with children.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

I think those would probably be the Big three?

SPEAKER_02:

The main ones. Okay. I'm going to list some more just to broaden this a bit. We just want to thicken the plot here. Because there might be feelings that you experience even on a smaller scale that are worth putting in. How about, is there sadness?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's sadness. There's sadness.

SPEAKER_02:

Grief?

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Curiosity?

UNKNOWN:

No.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Anxiety?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, that's a great one. I don't know how I forgot that one. Oh, that's okay. I think anxiety on so many different levels, actually.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Uncertainty?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. I didn't realize that was a feeling, but yeah, that's right.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think I was just thinking more broad spectrum, like happy, sad, anger.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, anger is, do you

SPEAKER_03:

feel anger, do you think? I think I have more frustration with myself that why is this decision so hard when it comes so easy? Yeah. to other people. Like most of my friends either, you know, know for certain they want children or know for certain they don't want children. So there's a little bit of internal frustration of, you know, why can't you be more certain with like with this

SPEAKER_02:

decision? So I'm hearing two other feelings in there. Self-doubt.

SPEAKER_03:

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And feeling kind of indecisive.

SPEAKER_03:

Great word. Yeah, great work. I'm stuck in the gray. I don't know where I land on this decision.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I wonder if you're feeling, like I'm thinking about this feeling of, or a sense of being lost or directionless, but I don't know what feeling word that is. Do you feel hope or hopeless?

SPEAKER_03:

I definitely don't feel hopeless. I think I definitely feel hope being born in this era where science is so great. My partner and I have a lot of great strategies and tools around us. And fortunately, I have the resources to access those strategies should I wish to. So I think I'm definitely hopeful.

SPEAKER_02:

And if you're hopeful, I imagine you're optimistic?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think I'm optimistic, not, I don't want to broad stroke that and say I'm optimistic as it relates to everything, because if I decide to have a child and my partner lands at a hard no, that's a little, it's not optimistic, but I think there's parts of this decision that I'm optimistic about.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, okay. Here are the feelings we've got so far. Jealousy, fear, excitement. sadness, curiosity, anxiety, uncertainty, frustration, self-doubt, indecisive, hopeful, optimistic. Can you think of any other feelings?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I stopped at the first three, so I think we're doing pretty good.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, no, you're right. This is a good list. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to go through this list, and I want you to think about... Oh, actually, no, wait, I've got a couple more feelings I want to ask about. Do you experience regret or rejection at any, when you think about the idea of having children or not having children?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't think rejection, actually, you know what, I take that back. So definitely regret I worry about. If I make a decision not to have children, I might be okay with that. in the next, you know, 10 to 20 years. But I do worry about the feeling of regret maybe in my 70s or 80s. So sort of end of life regret. But I don't have regret right now. What was the second one that you asked?

SPEAKER_02:

I said rejection, but I think you said no, not to rejection. I

SPEAKER_03:

mean... It's interesting because I don't feel rejection right now, but when I think about it a little deeper, I think there is the next chapter where if you don't have children, you might be excluded from certain gatherings. Exactly. I think there is maybe a level of rejection.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And I think there's a feeling of... an anticipatory loss either way. Like if I, if I have, if I want a child and my partner doesn't, we could, I could lose her or if I decided I don't want a part, sorry, I want to stay with my current partner and I'm saying I don't want children, but part of me does, there's, there's still a loss of a, of a dream of an idea.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. I think that's, that's what's so scary about this decision is, is that wherever I land, it's going to be a loss of something major. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, you said fear, scary. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to go through each feeling and I'm going to ask you to rate it on a scale of one to 10. 10 is the most intense. One is the least intense. It's, The intensity with which you experience this feeling in the context of, you know, potentially closing the door and having children. But more broadly, when you're walking in the park and you're seeing other people's families or you're having conversations with others about challenges with conceiving.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Give me one second. I just got to modify this. All right, so jealousy. With what intensity do you feel that in this situation?

SPEAKER_03:

Five.

SPEAKER_02:

Fear.

SPEAKER_03:

An eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Excitement.

SPEAKER_03:

Seven.

SPEAKER_02:

Sadness.

SPEAKER_03:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Curiosity.

SPEAKER_03:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Anxiety.

SPEAKER_03:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Uncertainty.

SPEAKER_03:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Frustration.

SPEAKER_03:

Nine.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-doubt.

SPEAKER_03:

Five.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. Indecisive.

SPEAKER_03:

Eight. Oops.

SPEAKER_02:

I did a bad thing. Okay, there we go. Indecisive.

SPEAKER_03:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Hopeful.

SPEAKER_03:

Ten.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh, that's good. Optimistic.

SPEAKER_03:

Nine.

SPEAKER_02:

Regret.

SPEAKER_03:

Nine.

SPEAKER_02:

Rejection.

SPEAKER_03:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

And loss.

SPEAKER_03:

I can't remember what context. Oh, was this loss of partner? Loss

SPEAKER_02:

of partner or loss of dream of having a child. 10. Okay. You're like, what was that thing again? Oh, yeah. I wasn't sure which emotion. No problem. When you say it that way. No, no, no

SPEAKER_03:

problem. Yeah, that's pretty.

SPEAKER_02:

It's

SPEAKER_03:

high. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So. The next column is the behavior column. And this is just about what it is you do, whether it's something you say to yourself or it becomes like a ritual, a pattern, something you do to self-soothe or avoid. What do you do when you're having this conversation with yourself? And clearly you don't come to a concrete answer. What do you continue to do? Do you keep walking? Do you open a bottle of red? Like, what is it you do? I

SPEAKER_03:

think there's two circumstances. I mean, I think I find myself often when I'm walking through the park, let's say, for example, with my partner, I'll strike up the conversation of perhaps a future image of what it would look like if we were in that situation. So definitely, you know, firing up conversation with her. Even after we've said no baby talk. I'll break the truth, which is not great, but I do it. I'm very solutions oriented. So I would say with myself, I will try to find different insurance policies, meaning I will start taking vitamins. I will... reach out to, you know, different people who have gone through fertility treatment or I'll make my next appointment with my fertility clinic. I'll talk to a friend.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I

SPEAKER_03:

don't think I do anything destructive. Like I don't think I have a, I don't think that I'm an emotional eater or, but sorry, I wanted to go back to that first point. that first point that I mentioned about striking up conversation with my partner, where it almost always leads to, you know, a dead end conversation. And then we both become very avoidant. And then we just say, well, we'll put a pin in it for another day.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Do you both kind of withdraw a

SPEAKER_03:

bit? I don't think we, I don't think we withdraw from each other. We just withdraw from that conversation. So we, we just, agree that we're not ready to have this conversation or that this conversation is just going nowhere. So we just put a pin in it for another day, for another day, for another day.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yeah. All right. So here's your behavior. Strike up conversation with partner about the future leads to a dead end and convo gets postponed. I'll break the no baby talk truce. And of course there's this impetus, right? You see something and it makes sense that you can do that. Try to find different quote unquote insurance policies. The way I understand that it's like, what can I do to make this work? Despite these clocks that you're under the pressure of and seeking out consults, advice, you said fertility clinic, peers, friends, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, you're walking in the park and you feel jealous. Can you tell me, what is your automatic thought that's connected to jealousy? My

SPEAKER_03:

automatic thought?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, just the thought that comes

SPEAKER_03:

to your mind. Like, wouldn't that be nice? Or wouldn't that be a great way to spend a Sunday?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And so, yes. So great. Wouldn't that be a nice way to spend a Sunday? Tell me more. You mean with family? I

SPEAKER_03:

think it brings me back to my childhood where we did so many things together as a family. And now I would love to return that to the world. So there's this level of, but I had that when I was younger. I'd love to spend my Sunday that way. again.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So when I, so I'm going to, I'm going to twist that a bit because the feelings we're talking about are difficult ones. And so the, like that statement you just talked about speaks to like a kind of nostalgia, but if you're talking about

SPEAKER_03:

Jealousy.

SPEAKER_02:

Jealousy or sadness. I'm thinking more your thoughts are about they get to have it and I don't. Or I might not get to have this. Or it's unfair that they get to do it so easily and I don't.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it could be also a comparison narrative of just.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. What would that comparison narrative be? Give me that statement.

SPEAKER_03:

The haves and the have-nots. So

SPEAKER_02:

I'm a have-not?

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And let's flesh that out a little bit. If I'm a have-not, what does that mean? Like I'm not able to have

SPEAKER_03:

children? No, maybe just less than. It's not that I'm not able to have it. It's just that I haven't made this decision to have it or not. I know that if I... I'm pretty confident that if I made the decision to have a child, I would... be able to figure out a strategy on how to do that. So I think right now where I land is, as it relates to jealousy, is that I don't have that right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I'm going to type something up, but I don't want you to pay attention to it for now.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Because we'll come back to it. And I want us to talk about jealousy. So jealousy is usually when we feel... I mean, you say jealousy, but it might also even be envy, but it doesn't matter actually for now. For our purposes, you're thinking they have something that I wish I could have. And then you're talking about, I spent my childhood doing family-oriented things, and I won't have that. Or I

SPEAKER_03:

might not. I don't have that right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, great. Okay, so here are the three automatic thoughts that I've got so far, stemming from some of the feelings you've identified. So they have something I wish I could have. I spent my childhood doing family-oriented things, and I don't have that right now. I could be solution-focused, but I'm holding myself back. Is that last

SPEAKER_03:

one accurate? I'm holding myself back because I haven't made a decision yet. So I think once I make a decision, so I think that last statement actually is very correct, is that I'm so used to if you want something done, then you can do it. But in this situation, I don't know if I'm holding myself back or, yeah, I guess I'm holding myself back if I'm taking responsibility for everything.

SPEAKER_02:

So you're also saying I'm used to, you're used to making decisions and getting things done. Right. Okay. And in this situation, tell me why you're having a hard time making a decision.

SPEAKER_03:

I think because there's another party involved. So normally all the decisions that I make are, they're all around me. I've never really-

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm going to challenge you on that. Okay, sure. Because it doesn't sound to me like it's, well, okay, maybe we have to shift this conversation a bit, but what you described was, hey, it's not about my partner, it's me being uncertain, right? So it's not that, you're thinking about another party, you seem to be not sure whether or not you want a child. Are you now saying that you pretty much want it, but you're not sure if you want it bad enough to fight for it or to negotiate it? I

SPEAKER_03:

think in a conversation we've had before, I mentioned that I'm like 60% want a child and 40% don't want a child. And my partner is 60, maybe even 70% doesn't want a child and 30% wants a child.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. You know what I should do? So me 60, 40. Want. Yeah. Want partner. 70,

SPEAKER_03:

30. Don't doesn't.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay. Okay. And tell me a bit about your, a bit more about your frustration here, like your frustration and your fear. Like, what are you afraid of? So in this situation, I'm afraid of making the wrong decision, letting something go, saying I want this and then being able to follow through? What is it you're afraid of?

SPEAKER_03:

I feel like the decision is so concrete. So if I decide to have a child, it's sort of a lifelong decision. What if I have a child and I don't actually want the child anymore? What if I have a child and I can't do it? And then I have a partner that doesn't really want a child, so then where's that support coming from? It's the fear of, sorry, I'm talking a little bit faster than

SPEAKER_02:

maybe. No, that's okay. So I might not be able to carry out this plan if my partner's not on board.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So there's this fear of also

SPEAKER_03:

Also, my life is pretty great right now. I think it's the fear of, you know, do I really want that? Like I'm at 60, 40 right now, but I feel like, or what I've heard is that, you know, you should be a parent if you really want to be a parent, if you 100% want to be a parent. And so my fear is, am I making the wrong decision if I'm not at 100%? Want.

SPEAKER_02:

So, okay. So based on what other people have told me, Are these parents?

SPEAKER_03:

Yep. Parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So based on what other parents have told me, I don't meet the enthusiastic requirements. Requirements to have children. Okay. Okay. here are your automatic thoughts they have something that i wish i could have i spent my childhood doing family oriented things and i don't have that right now i could be solution focused but i'm holding myself back i'm used to making decisions and getting things done uh me 40 60 want partner 70 30 doesn't i might not be able to carry out this plan if my partner is um That's not how you use that. Partner is not on board. And based on what other parents have told me, I don't meet the enthusiastic requirements to have children. I have to paraphrase, but only for my own joy. Okay. So now as a queer person, I'm looking at the first thought and you're saying they have something that I wish I could have. And I wonder if there's something about being queer that makes it harder for you to have this. Would this decision be easier if you were, do you think, if you were straight in a heterosexual relationship?

SPEAKER_03:

I think that all the time. I think that if I was in a heterosexual relationship, I would be married by now. I feel like there wouldn't even be a question. We would be lined up to have a child or thinking about it, planning for it. I think the challenge comes because I'm in a same sex relationship. So it's definitely not as easy of a decision. It's a very purposeful decision. I think also it would depend on my partner in the heterosexual relationship. You know, if, if he didn't want to have children, then I feel like it would just be, I'm wondering if, if,

SPEAKER_02:

You're wondering if you'd be in the same place if it was a hetero

SPEAKER_03:

relationship. Yeah, I don't know where that other person's... Like, for example, if my partner right now said, I 100% want children, I'd be ready to go. Okay. But because she's sort of in this gray zone, it leaves me in this like unconfident gray zone.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

But I definitely know that I'm not as easy to say no right away. I'm easier to say yes than I am to say no. If that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I need my partner to be more confident for me to feel

SPEAKER_03:

certain or confident.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Let's say certain that's about this choice. So what you're talking about is really interesting because it's, to me, it's not about, it's not about the specific characteristics of your, of your partner, but more so the structure of a heterosexual versus a queer relationship, where there's some assumptions in a hetero relationship. The way you said, like you used a phrase, it wouldn't even be a question,

SPEAKER_01:

right?

SPEAKER_02:

And both parties would be, they would get the certainty and the confidence from people around them. They would be cheering them on. In a hetero couple, it's actually harder to not have kids People question you or they say things like, oh, you're selfish, or they think you're not fulfilling your duty as a human or as a woman. So I think hetero folks have a harder time socially not having children. And I think for queer folks, there's a lot of ambivalence because other queer people are like, why are you doing that? That's so much work. And then there's so many queer people who are like, oh, it's a beautiful thing. You could do it. We live in a world where it's all possible. I think it's normal to have more ambivalence as a queer person. But what I'm hearing from you is that, well, I'm not hearing this concretely, but I wonder if the jealousy part of you is a bit resentful that things aren't as easy for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. I think that the frustration emotion that I had mentioned, it's really frustrating that I can't make this decision or, yeah, I haven't been able to make this decision a lot faster than I would have liked to. I wish it was just, you know, I wish I was a hundred percent. I want a child. Are you on board or not on board? Or I wish she was, I I'm a hundred percent. I want a child. Are you on board? Or I zero percent, you know, want a child. But it's that frustration for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

With, with the lack of confidence.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. Okay. I'm thinking here. If your partner is not, more confident what's going to be the consequence of that for you i i

SPEAKER_03:

feel like i'm gonna and i think this is why the first question that i mentioned was is the conversation with myself i think i really need to figure out if i a hundred percent want a child and

SPEAKER_02:

then it sounds like the conversation with yourself isn't one with yourself because you're saying if She says, yes, I'm on board 100%. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03:

because I feel like I could do it if my partner was 100%.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so I could do this if my partner was... Now, you're not 100%. You're 60-40. So could you say, I could do this if my partner was... 60 40 as well no

SPEAKER_03:

no i think my partner would would have to be like i want a child

SPEAKER_02:

okay i could do this if my partner for sure wanted one and so what happens she doesn't for sure want one right now if it's 70 30 and i'm wondering what does that mean so like if she's 70, 30, what's the consequence of this? Or what does this mean for either your future or your relationship?

SPEAKER_03:

So I think that if I was to come to the decision of, I do not want this, I do not want a child. I think everything is hunky-dory between us and we just move forward as is. I think things get a little... Things get a little ripply, like the waves start to ripple if I inch closer to 70%, 80% want. And I don't want to make her sound like she 100% doesn't want. So I have reached out to a fertility clinic. I am taking the steps to create that insurance policy so that in six months or a year, if we do inch towards wanting it, then at least we have that

SPEAKER_02:

option. But one of the things you're saying is that my partner needs to really want it for me to be able to feel like I can do it. So I'm saying if your partner decides, because she's 70, 30 right now, if we took that as a no, if we like imagine that that's a concrete no, what does that mean for you? What does that mean for your future? What does that mean for the relationship?

SPEAKER_03:

I think that I continue to have that insurance policy. Um, and then if I decide that I'm, uh, you know, I'm going to have to make the decision sooner than later at like 38, 39, 40 of, you know, if I come to the conclusion that I want a child a hundred percent, then perhaps we end the relationship. And then if I do not want the child, then like I said, we're, we're in a good place. I'm happy to move forward with her.

SPEAKER_02:

okay so one of the things we have to name here right is that my relationship could end

SPEAKER_03:

right i

SPEAKER_02:

think it's important to just name it because when i say you're saying like i need her to want this for sure otherwise i can't do it and i'm saying hypothetically if we took 70 30 to say to if we took that to mean no what will that mean for you You didn't straight go to, well, my relationship would end. You said, well, if she doesn't want kids, I'll just still keep exploring my insurance policies. So what you're saying is I want to accept her. No, I'm not ready to accept a no.

SPEAKER_03:

No, no, I'm not.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I'm not ready to accept a no. Okay. and my relationship could end. And if this relationship ends, what will be particularly hard about that?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, obviously the relationship, having a partner that, just having a partner, that would be the loss.

SPEAKER_02:

What does it mean to you as a queer person to have a partner? Like, is it, has your, is your life different as a queer person with a partner versus without a partner?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think I, I think I enjoy the, the idea of having this person by your side and, Am I different with or without a partner? I don't think so. I think it's a bonus.

SPEAKER_02:

Does it change or help or represent something for you as a queer person in the world who just doesn't get affirmation the same way your straight counterparts do? Does it mean something to have a relationship? That's unique to you. I think it helps you participate, get invited to things.

SPEAKER_03:

I definitely think you hit the nail on the head. I think it is a little sense of normalcy, a little sense of affirmation as it relates socially. Yeah. But it doesn't necessarily change me, but I think the world, the, the image, the yeah, I think it definitely affirms, some sense of normalcy to my life.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_03:

I hate the word normal. That's okay. I know. I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at.

SPEAKER_02:

I totally do. But here's how I've written it down. The loss... of relationship also means the loss of being seen as normal. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_03:

Maybe I like the word conventional better. I don't know. I really don't like that word normal.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. No problem. Conventional. Okay. Now, if you don't have a child but you keep a relationship. I wonder like, what does it say about, actually let's backtrack. You talked about this, I'm gonna highlight this point here where you said, I spent my childhood doing family oriented things and I don't have that right now. And what did it say about your parents I imagine your parents are like a heterosexual couple?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And so for them, what did it say about them to be able to spend lots of time with their kids? What kind of parents were they? What kind of people in the world were they?

SPEAKER_03:

To me, that is what parents did. That was a normal, conventional family unit, right? dedicated, present, available, stable, very, very, I grew up in a very stable household. I know I'm very fortunate for that. Yeah. And maybe I'm a little bit resentful for this normal, conventional, stable relationship. And now I feel like, you know, I'm in this world or in this lifestyle or in this relationship that, maybe doesn't necessarily feel like my upbringing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, exactly. So part of what you've learned from your family is that having a family and being dedicated to the family is just what people do. And so what does it say about you or how will they see you if you don't have a family like that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, this isn't just anybody, your family in particular.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So you're asking me, how will my family regard me being in a same-sex relationship without children?

SPEAKER_02:

Let's skip the same-sex part and more so like, how do you think they're going to see you as somebody with children versus somebody without children?

SPEAKER_03:

So my parents have never pressured me. into having children. I've never felt any pressure for them, but I do feel maybe it's self projected. I do feel perhaps a sense of, I don't know what the word is, not letting them down, but a sense of unfulfillment. Like I didn't, I didn't maybe complete my cycle as a human. But it's interesting because they've never articulated that to me. I think there have been in different circumstances where maybe they've hinted towards it, but I've never really said it out blatantly. We need you to have children or when are you having children? In different contexts, my dad has said, well, what is this all for? Or why are you working this hard? Just little statements, but nothing... Nothing very common.

SPEAKER_02:

Tell me a bit about that. So your dad says... This is a part of the conversation that I don't know a lot about. So to them, does it look like to them you're working harder than you need to?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I think it's... To them, it would appear like I'm creating a foundation for the next generation, right? So... perhaps buying homes or investments or building a business. Well, what are you doing all of this for if you're not having children? So the whole point is to set up the next generation to be in a better position than you were in. And

SPEAKER_01:

so- Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

And so- Again, this hasn't been a frequent question, but it has been sprinkled into conversations here and there. And so I'm also very aware of, you know, what am I doing this all for?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Okay. So this is a very important point. So here's what I've written down. So I spent my childhood doing family oriented things and I don't have that right now. When you first said that, I was like, oh, is this nostalgia? Is this resentment? Is it a sense of competition? We go a bit deeper and you're like, well, no, this is the message I've gotten. Like having a family and then being dedicated to the family is what people do, right? Now you're speaking to the purpose of life and the purpose of existing. And you're also saying that message is actually so strong that your family hasn't pressured you or said it. They've never had to say it explicitly, but the message is so strong that you know that you might not, they might see you as not having fulfilled your purpose as a woman or as a child and a person in your family if you don't have children.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. On the one hand, you could say, oh, you know, they don't they didn't pressure me. So it's not you know, I don't I don't experience that from my family. But actually, it's so deep seated. It doesn't need to be articulated. It's an expectation. Right. And so if you think, OK, if I'm closing the door on having a child, well, it's unclear then what the purpose of my work and consumption, meaning you talked about buying a home. So like. the way you think about property and capital, like when you think about your role in capitalism and working, right. It's unclear what that's for, if you're not passing it on to another generation.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And I've spoken to, I've spoken to other friends who've chosen not to have children. And I also understand the idea of, you know, working to feel fulfilled, you know, investing as you know an insurance policy for later in life should something happen uh and i can't work anymore and and so i understand you know how sorry

SPEAKER_02:

slow down here your before when you used the language of insurance policies that was to safeguard a way to have children later on Now you're talking about insurance policy as a metaphor for actual children who will take care of you later in life. Is that right? No,

SPEAKER_03:

no, no, no. Oh, sorry. I'm glad you clarified. I think that what I was trying to get at was that I also understand how one could live without children. And so you can still be doing all of these things, working, buying different investment strategies as insurance policies to just protect me. This whole idea of maybe just living a selfish life. I don't even like to use that word because I don't think not having children is selfish. But

SPEAKER_02:

don't

SPEAKER_03:

censor

SPEAKER_02:

yourself here because we're talking about the world you exist in and the kinds of messages people give you. Right. So, I mean, you know, if you want to say conventional versus over normal, I'll give it to you. But I do think like, you know, to me, it's just a word. But in the back of my mind, I kind of know that we're talking about normal, even though we hate the word. We're talking about the world around us and what gets us closer to or more proximity to the norm or what's normal. And in this case, you're talking about, sorry, what was the second word you used?

SPEAKER_03:

It was conventional versus normal.

SPEAKER_02:

And then we just said another word, but I forgot it. Said I hate, oh, selfish, right? And I think, yeah. And I think in our culture, people do, people are, sometimes they'll say, oh, you don't want to have children. Oh, that's selfish. Right. And I would think, Really? Like, how? Well, I

SPEAKER_03:

think that, and I think you said it earlier that, you know, in me trying to maybe mirror what I saw as a child, where my parents were so selfless or felt very selfless in raising my brother and I.

SPEAKER_01:

You

SPEAKER_03:

know, not necessarily making those same sacrifices, whether it's, you know, time, financial, whatever it is. Perhaps that feels very, you know, selfish. Now, all I have to do is worry about myself because there is no other generation to worry about. There is no... So...

SPEAKER_02:

Here's the thing. Are you saying that there is a selfless part of being a parent that you're sad you're going to miss out on?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I think that's the fear. I love my life right now. My fear of losing that independence, being a little bit self... Being a little bit selfless is actually a little bit scary because I'm quite selfish right now. Everything is for me. I haven't made this session easy, have I, Rahim?

SPEAKER_02:

Pardon?

SPEAKER_03:

I haven't made this session easy,

SPEAKER_02:

have I? No, that's okay. I'm trying to get to these various thoughts. So I'm quite selfish right now because my life... focuses only on me. Is that right? Right. Okay. And so having children makes you, gives you more opportunities to be selfless. Is that right? I

SPEAKER_03:

think this is sort of a negative of having children. It's, I'm worried about, I'm fearful of having to be more selfless.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

So I enjoy being selfish. I enjoy only worrying about myself. I love not having this extra responsibility. So it's actually a negative or a

SPEAKER_02:

con for having children. And yet it's seductive. Like you're saying, I'm selfish right now. I really like that I can spend all this time with myself, but But there's something about the idea of having a child that's very seductive. Like it lures you in almost. And the way I'm hearing it is there's either some guilt for being selfish and focusing only on you. And that loops us back to this idea that it's your purpose. You're supposed to have a child. Like that is your role. Or it makes us also think like, or it makes me think about how you admired someone. your parents for their selflessness and having children. And so if that's true that you admire them for their selflessness and having children, then for you, you would have understood having children means you are a selfless person and that's valued in the world. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So did you admire your parents for being selfless?

SPEAKER_03:

I think it, In the time, like when I was younger, I probably didn't. But I think as I get older, I really do admire the sacrifices, the stability and them being present. I really do admire that. I think that takes a lot of, like I said, it takes a lot of selflessness too. And I don't have any children. And so I don't understand what it emotionally means.

SPEAKER_02:

So would you agree that, okay, so you said I'm quite selfish right now because my life focus is only on me. Would you agree with the second part of the statement that not having children means I'm selfish?

SPEAKER_03:

Not having children allows me to continue being selfish.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so it means you're selfish.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because here's what, I'm not talking about objective truths here. I'm talking about your beliefs.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And it seems like the way, you know, it's not through any fault of anybody's, but like we all have beliefs that are shaped by our environment. And this is a belief that I think you've internalized that not having children means I'm selfish in a way. Yes,

SPEAKER_03:

yes. I would agree with that. I have a hard time agreeing with it, but I think-

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, because it doesn't sound nice. Okay. The other statement you had here, which is, I could be solution-focused, but I'm holding myself back, or I'm used to making decisions and getting things done. What does it say about you when you're not able to in this context?

SPEAKER_03:

I think I lose a lot of power sometimes. Yes. I lose a lot of...

SPEAKER_02:

When you lose a lot of power, how does that change how you think about yourself? I'm not as... Weak. Go ahead. Weak. I am weak. Okay. Yeah. So instead of I'm weak, how about we say I am not as strong as... I thought I was, and I want to even refine strong. So in this context, it's like, like, it's not about like physical or emotional strength. That's about strong willed. I'm not as strong willed as I thought it was. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yes. All right. Telsa. The last one that you had mentioned was based on what other parents have told me, I don't meet the enthusiastic requirements to have a child. So this one is a bit funny for me, but also if other people think, do you think that other people are like warning you? Do you think that they think you're not ready to have a child?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I think it's coming from, perhaps some internal resentment for having the children. So, you know, it's, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. It is a lot more time consuming, financial consuming than I would have liked for it to be. And so if you don't want it a hundred percent, don't, don't sign up for it. Cause this is, this is your choice. Like you're doing this. And so, you know, I understand that the first, you know, five, 10, I think actually what's important to notice is that I'm very fearful. A quote that was said to me was, was that regardless of how the child comes out of you, you must, you know, accept it's completely. And I'm, I'm very fearful of the child being unhealthy. And would I resent that child if it was unhealthy or, And it's a really deep, dark thought, but it is a thought that pushes me quite strong in the direction of not having children because it reminds me of, you know...

SPEAKER_02:

What does it remind you of?

SPEAKER_03:

So it reminds me of... It's funny, I'm getting emotional.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

So you're talking about, I won't be able to support a child if they have a disability of kinds and there's a memory.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not that I won't be able to support them. It's, I mean, maybe that's one part of it. I'm also worried about being resentful for having the child because then at that point I, I would feel terrible for either. I mean, I feel like I couldn't give up at that point, but yeah, stuck in this life that I maybe didn't want that, you know, you said it was so seductive, but now it's not. And so I think stuck is a great word. Stuck in a situation that I didn't sign up for. So I think the health of the child is very concerning to me, but it reminds me of a story. My mom told me, When she was pregnant with my brother, I guess back then they didn't have, I guess they didn't have the medical system that we have right now. So based on just measurements or visuals of an ultrasound of my brother, they had told my mom that there was a high possibility he would be born with Down syndrome. And my mom said, No problem. We want this child. We're going to move forward with it. And so I think that conviction to have a child, I don't think I have it.

SPEAKER_02:

Tell me about the tears. What are the thoughts with the tears? I

SPEAKER_03:

think they're related to fear of this being a reality. I feel like the decision is so easy if the child is born with a... And you can blanket statement with a disability. I feel like the answer is so clear that it would be, I do not want a child in that situation. And so that's scary. That's really,

SPEAKER_02:

really scary. And you think about this story from your mom where she says...

SPEAKER_03:

If we're going to move forward.

SPEAKER_02:

Your brother could have been born with Down syndrome. And the thought that comes up for you there is, I don't have the same conviction as my mom. Or I'm not as unconditionally loving as my mom. Is that it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I guess. Maybe...

SPEAKER_02:

maybe I can't live up to my mom's level of unconditional love. No,

SPEAKER_03:

I think, I think it's just, I don't know. I don't think it has to relate to my mom. I think it's just the statement of being a parent means you unconditionally love this child, regardless of how it comes out. And I think in my head, I'm, I'm on board if everything is hunky Dory, but then I'm, I don't know if I'm capable or I'm strong enough or I'm, I'm ready to give up my very comfortable life right now for that challenge of being a parent. So I feel like I'm very circumstantial about being a parent. You know, if everything is, and that's, and you can't control that. I lose a lot of control when it comes to having a healthy child. So I think the tears are just equated to fear probably.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, totally. So I'm going to read out. the the thoughts we've talked about in clusters okay and as i read them out the ones with the arrows beside them are are the ones that i would say are more distilled we have um but not all of them like this could also be one but anyway i want you to pick one of these thoughts that's the most salient meaning the most prominent That takes up a lot of mental space, that drives a lot of the difficult feelings you're having, the uncertainty, the frustration, the sadness, the fear, the regret, the loss. When you think about these conversations with yourself, about whether or not this is something you could pursue. So they have something that I wish I could have. If I were in a head of relationship, this wouldn't even be a question. I need my partner to be more confident for me to feel certain about this choice. I could do this if my partner for sure wanted one. I spent my childhood doing family oriented things and I don't have that right now. This means having a family and being dedicated to that family is what people do. I won't have fulfilled my purpose as a woman or a child and person in my family. It's unclear what the purpose of work consumption is if I'm not passing it on to another generation. I'm quite selfish right now because my life focuses only on me. Not having children means I'm selfish. I could be solution-focused, but I'm holding myself back. This is about I'm not as strong-willed as I thought I was. And then we talk about you and your partner, 60-40, 70-30. If my partner doesn't want kids, I'll still keep my insurance policies or keep exploring my insurance policies, which means I'm not ready to accept no and my relationship could end. The loss of the relationship also means the loss of being seen as conventional. Based on what other parents have told me, I don't meet the enthusiastic requirements to have children. Now, we started with a place of humor, but it actually triggers this memory of your mom's story. And then the thought connected to the story is, I don't know if I'm capable of providing unconditional love. This is a painful thought that you sit with or a belief that you sit with. I won't be able to support a child if they have a disability or I will be stuck in something that was originally seductive. There's a lot of thoughts there. Telsa, which one really stands out to you as being salient, prominent, the driver of the difficult feelings? Let me know if you want me to scroll.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I think the point that is a reoccurring thought in my head is this idea of what is all of this for? I believe it was.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's unclear what the purpose of my work and consumption is if I'm not passing it on to another generation.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that the one do you think is? I

SPEAKER_03:

think that's a pretty high. I feel like there's two. That one's pretty high. And

SPEAKER_02:

we could change the word consumption to maybe work slash life planning.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Does that feel a bit better? Like a bit more relatable? Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Scroll up a little bit for me, just the first couple of points. If I was in a hetero relationship, this would be the question. I would say the first point of the, you know, this after I spent, or sorry, having a family and being dedicated to the family is what people do.

SPEAKER_02:

That really speaks to you, huh?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Is there another one that really stands out to you? We should be picking one, but I'm okay to select a few and then combine them or narrow it down.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's interesting because I think that statement of, you know, and you caught me in this statement was if I was in a heterosexual relationship, this wouldn't even be a question. So this resentment towards perhaps me being in a same-sex relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

And if it's a resent, yes, exactly. So the thought there or the belief is that I'm at a disadvantage for being queer.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm glad we're able to name that, but I'm going to go on a limb here and suggest that's probably not the salient thought that's driving these difficult feelings. How are you doing on that end?

SPEAKER_03:

I'm good. I'm good. No, I'm just residual sniffles.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So would you say these two would be your hot thought? Because they're related. Hot thought means like it's the most salient, prominent one. Having a family and being dedicated to that family is what people do. And it's unclear what the purpose of my work or life planning is if I'm not passing it on to another generation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I would say that those are the main two. I'm sure there are other ones that are obviously very relevant, but I think for the most part, those capture.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So the idea of you being selfish is not super salient.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And the loss of a relationship also means the loss of being seen as normal or conventional. That's also not super salient.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And I don't know if I'm capable of providing unconditional love. That's not super salient.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I think this idea is very strong. But

SPEAKER_02:

it's not. as strong as the other ones about your purpose in life?

SPEAKER_03:

No, you can highlight that one. That's a, that's a big one because that's a really, that's a really big point in the opposite direction for not having the child. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I feel like the other ones are very pro like pushing me towards having a child, but this is a very, this is a very strong point pushing me in the opposite direction.

SPEAKER_02:

okay um you know what i'm gonna do is i'm gonna i'm gonna combine it with this one even though they don't really go together okay uh so it's unclear what the purpose of my work and life planning is if i'm not passing it on to another generation and i don't know if i'm capable of providing unconditional love um I am going to unbold this one.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Like you just can't have so many salient thoughts. I'm sorry. All right, Tasa. Take a deep breath in. And out. All right. How do you feel right now? You've done a lot of hard work.

SPEAKER_03:

Good, good. I was not expecting to be emotional. So that was... That's a win for you.

SPEAKER_02:

Typically, I don't measure myself as a success if somebody's emotional. You should. Well, some people come into therapy because they need a space to cry. Whereas other people, they don't know that there's a lot of... degree of sadness and grief that they're carrying. So in that case, it could be a win. Here we go. We are going to analyze your hot thought. Your hot thought is a mouthful. It is. It's unclear what the purpose of my work life planning is if I'm not passing it on to another generation. I don't know if I'm capable of providing unconditional love. Now, what's evidence that supports this idea that

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think

SPEAKER_02:

the most... Life will have less purpose. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think it's just the story that I've been fed since I was young was that my parents have repeatedly said, we're doing this all for you. We're doing this all for you. And so I think it's the story of, you know, they've lived their life to provide a better life for us, my mother and I. And so... I think it's this idea of, well, if they've lived their life for us, well, then who am I living my life for? Or what am I working so hard for?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay. So providing a better life. And

SPEAKER_03:

I'm not saying that, you know, we are the purpose of their life, but I think we're a big, we are a big part of their life. Yes. The driving force for them. all if not most of their decisions.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So what I'm writing here is providing a better life for your kids. And we're doing this all for you is the narrative I've been fed my whole life.

SPEAKER_03:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And you mentioned that you have friends who are having challenges conceiving and you only know about that. I presume because they're still trying.

SPEAKER_01:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

So that fuels this idea that that is the purpose in life

SPEAKER_03:

because

SPEAKER_02:

other people are doing it as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I think, I think it just hits closer to home because, you know, all, if not most of my friends around me, are either they have children or they're preparing to have children. So it's, you know, for most of our lives, we've entered the next chapter together. And I feel like either my story's done in a sense, or I continue on to the next chapter, which I've been fed is children. Or I mean, my belief is that it's children, the next chapter.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so friends around me are preparing to have children or already do. I'm not ready or not ready, but I... So I'm just thinking about the evidence here is that you're a bit out of sync with your cohort of people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

My cohort of friends. Now, are these straight friends, queer friends, or both?

SPEAKER_03:

Straight friends.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Now, I am interested in a piece of evidence that supports the idea that you might not be capable of unconditional love. Has there been a time where you said, I can't love this person unconditionally, or what's being presented to me is overwhelming and I can't move forward?

SPEAKER_03:

I think there have been a couple, maybe not a handful, but a couple of instances where the scale has tipped so heavy in the direction of giving that that I have had to remove myself from that situation.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, and is that in a romantic relationship or another

SPEAKER_03:

situation? No, just friends.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. So I've had friends, and you're saying one or two?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah, two. I would say two. Okay. Maybe three.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I've had friends... How should we phrase this? Who asked for too much or demanded too much? Who required

SPEAKER_03:

maybe too much energy, resources. And

SPEAKER_02:

what did you do? You stepped away from

SPEAKER_03:

them? I just withdrew.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. All right. So here's your evidence that supports the hot thought. Providing a better life for your kids and we're doing this all for you is a narrative I've been fed my whole life. Friends around me are preparing to have children or already do. I'm out of sync with my cohort of straight friends. In the past, I've had friends, you know, approximately one to three who required too much energy and resources and I had to withdraw. Now, give me some evidence that does not support this hot thought. So we're looking for evidence that you've already shown that you have some purpose without children. You have been capable of expansive love. These are the two key things here.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm so sorry, Reem. I lost my train of thought. Could you

SPEAKER_02:

repeat that statement? No problem. No problem. Yeah. So let's come up with some evidence from your life that shows that you have purpose even without children. I

SPEAKER_03:

mean, I have a successful healthcare practice.

SPEAKER_02:

So I have a... successful healthcare practice where, I'm just gonna make it explicit, where I help people, right? Speaks to purpose.

SPEAKER_03:

I have meaningful family and friend relationships. I have many actually, which is lovely.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Family relationships and friendships. That's lovely. Now, do you know other people who are like you look at them and you're like, they have like a strong purpose in their life and they don't have kids?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Or they decided not to have

SPEAKER_03:

kids? Yes. I have three couples that have in that situation.

SPEAKER_02:

And they've decided not to have kids.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And.

SPEAKER_03:

Which is not many. No, no, no. In comparison to the alternative, but they do, they do offer, they do offer me comfort. Yeah. Idea of doing the same.

SPEAKER_02:

And are they still purposeful? Do you think that they like, what's the point of their life? What do they, what is their objective? Do you think in life?

SPEAKER_03:

I would say one couple is heavily immersed in community service.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

The other couple is heavily immersed in both have very successful jobs that are very fulfilling. So that's where we're job-focused.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

And the other couple, they just seem happy. Like they're just living true to their, I guess, needs and wants. Enjoying life. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Why did you add an exclamation mark? There's a little.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I just thought I'd add it. What did that feel like for you? A

SPEAKER_03:

judgment. Oh, okay. I'm kidding. My apologies. I'm

SPEAKER_02:

kidding. No, no, no. That's real. That's real. Now, do you have an example or some evidence that you. are capable of unconditional love or you're capable of being quite expansive around your life? Like with whom in your with whom in your life right now? Does your love feel unconditional or limitless?

SPEAKER_01:

Huh?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't think that there is one person in my life that asks a whole lot for me right now. So I feel like in the last maybe five years, I've created boundaries that don't allow me to feel maybe taken advantage of or being on the side of giver-giver. And not necessarily take or like I'm not a balanced relationship. So I don't know if there's, you know, there are obviously family and some friends and my partner that I'm there to support, but I don't necessarily know if I've been challenged to love them unconditionally. So I haven't been put in a very difficult position yet. meaning i don't know if there's somebody right now that's asking for an abundant amount of time or an abundant amount of my energy or an abundant amount of resources um so i don't know if i've actually been challenged in a in a little while

SPEAKER_02:

okay um so i think there's a conflation between the term love or unconditional love and having boundaries. Okay. So what I've heard you say here is I haven't been challenged to love someone unconditionally, only people with whom I've needed to have clearer boundaries. So I like that, you know, because I suspect from the way you've described your family, you, so I bet you love them unconditionally.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, no. And I think that I've, do love them unconditionally. I don't think I've been challenged to maybe prove that. So if you're looking for evidence, for example, I don't know if I can give you concrete evidence where I think in my mind evidence is somebody that's going through a really difficult health challenge or a very challenging financial situation where I've needed to step up. I don't think I've needed to prove myself. But yeah, I imagine that I love them unconditionally. I just don't know if I have any evidence for that.

SPEAKER_02:

So I think... if you love your family in abundance, why don't we use that word? I have loved my family in abundance. And I say it this way because you seem to have this fear that like you haven't been challenged enough and you have a belief that if if I'm challenged enough, I would cut people out of my life. And we actually don't know if that's true. We know that with some friends, you've had boundaries because it felt unfair. You were being taken advantage of. That's a little bit different. The dynamics you're talking about are different than thinking about unconditional love or love in abundance.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. All

SPEAKER_02:

right. You may or may not agree with that one, but let's move to the next column. Now we're getting towards the end. This is the alternative thought. So this is a thought that is going to be more balanced, more helpful, and an alternate to its own. to this one that we've bolded. It's unclear what the purpose of my work and life planning is if I'm not passing it on to another generation. And I don't know if I'm capable of providing unconditional love. So what's a good alternative thought now that we've evaluated the evidence for your original hot thought?

SPEAKER_03:

Secure. So this feeling of, you know, I feel secure, whether I make whatever decision I make, I feel secure.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so before we go to new feelings, yeah, this one's going to be important. So for, okay, I'll give you, I'll start you off with an example. So it could be that I will have a purpose in life, even if I don't have children. Does that make sense? You'll see how that's an alternative thought. So what would be other kinds of alternative thoughts?

SPEAKER_03:

I'm capable of loving those around me unconditionally, or I'm capable of loving a child unconditionally.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Do you think that's true? Do you believe that?

SPEAKER_03:

I do believe, I actually do believe that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I do. I can't, I can't promise that there might not be a sprinkle of resentment in there, but I think I would love the child unconditionally.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So this is good. Cause we're, we're getting, I think that needs to be part of the alternative thought. Right. I can feel resentful. or stuck in the context of parenthood, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, what do you think of that statement? That's a good statement.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so we've got three so far. I will have a purpose in life even if I don't have children. I am capable of loving those around me and more likely if it's my own child. I can feel resentful or stuck in the context of parenthood and that's okay. Is there anything else that you think would be balanced and helpful to tell yourself?

SPEAKER_03:

I want to have a statement around normal. Yes,

SPEAKER_02:

good.

SPEAKER_03:

I can have a normal family dynamic.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

In a same-sex relationship with or without children.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I love that. Yeah. Are

SPEAKER_03:

these going to turn into affirmations that I need to stick up on my wall?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I don't like affirmations

SPEAKER_01:

that much.

SPEAKER_02:

I think they clutter walls. I like very, I like like non-people art on my walls. I actually, I'm overstating it. You know, I don't like affirmations that are like too generalist, but these are alternative thoughts that are specific to you, to this situation. And they are an alternative to a specific thought and belief you have. So yes, if they do turn into things you put on your wall or affirmations, I think they, I think they would be quite helpful, right? They're quite different than saying something like, Everybody's life is valid. Like that's a great thing to say, but if it didn't emerge from a particular thought pattern that's specific to you, I worry that it won't be that helpful.

SPEAKER_03:

Right, right. I understand.

SPEAKER_02:

So now I want you to look at these alternative thoughts and I want you to pick just one, one that you like the most or you believe in the most.

SPEAKER_03:

The last one.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. And so the last one was, can you read

SPEAKER_03:

it out for us? I can have a normal family dynamic in a same-sex relationship with or without children.

SPEAKER_02:

Read it out one more time.

SPEAKER_03:

I can have a normal family dynamic in a same-sex relationship with or without children.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And I want you to rate the level of security you feel when you say that on a scale of one to 10.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Jealousy. I

SPEAKER_03:

don't know how jealousy would pertain to this, but.

SPEAKER_02:

Your original jealousy. You're walking in a park

SPEAKER_03:

and

SPEAKER_02:

you see, right? Like think about the original situation. You're talking to a friend who's having challenges conceiving or you're walking in a park. One? One, yeah. Fear?

SPEAKER_03:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Excitement? Eight. Sadness?

SPEAKER_03:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Curiosity?

SPEAKER_03:

Seven.

SPEAKER_02:

Anxiety.

SPEAKER_03:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Uncertainty.

SPEAKER_03:

Nine.

SPEAKER_02:

Frustration.

SPEAKER_03:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Self doubt.

SPEAKER_03:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Indecisive.

SPEAKER_03:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Hopeful.

SPEAKER_03:

10.

SPEAKER_02:

Optimistic.

SPEAKER_03:

10.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Regret.

SPEAKER_01:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

Rejection or anticipating rejection.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

And a sense of loss.

SPEAKER_03:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Any new feelings that come up? You mentioned secure, so I put it in there. Are there any other new feelings? So I'll name a few. I

SPEAKER_03:

don't know if peace is a feeling, but sort of a sense of, you know, at peace.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, peaceful, resolved. Do you feel... Rebellious or defiant?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02:

Which one?

SPEAKER_03:

Rebellious.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you feel strong-willed?

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Determined?

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you feel isolation?

SPEAKER_03:

No. I don't know what a word for different is, but maybe...

SPEAKER_02:

Tell me more about the different, you feel?

SPEAKER_03:

This idea that I don't necessarily have anyone or any family dynamic around me that looks like that. So this idea of maybe defiance. Is is the word

SPEAKER_02:

so defiant would be defiant would be about is similar to rebellious where you're you're resisting something. To be honest, I think what you're describing is a kind of a kind of. Isolation, where you're not well represented. Like an outlier

SPEAKER_03:

almost.

SPEAKER_02:

Outlier, yeah. The best I can come up with is isolated. But another one could be, like we could say you feel marginalized.

SPEAKER_03:

Let's go with marginalized because I feel that in a lot of, you know, a lot of different reasons.

SPEAKER_02:

It could also be unseen. So I put marginalized down. It could be unseen or erased.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I don't feel unseen or erased. No.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. So we've got a good list of feelings. After doing this exercise, your level of fear is still pretty high. Your level of uncertainty went up and your level of both regret. Sorry. your level of rejection also went up. And that's completely okay. I think some of these tougher ones came to light when we were able to silence or mitigate the self-doubt and the frustration and the indecisiveness. We silenced some things so other things could stand out and new feelings were even able to emerge. So The path we took here was we started with the conversation you're having with yourself, perhaps even with your partner, when you're walking in a park and you see other people's families, and when you have conversations with your friends about challenges they have conceiving. The hot thought that you have that drives a lot of the difficult feelings you experience is it's unclear what the purpose is. of my work and life planning is if I'm not passing it on to another generation and I don't know if I'm capable of providing unconditional love. The alternative, more balanced thought is I can have a normal family dynamic in a same-sex relationship with or without children. We're at the end of this exercise. I'm wondering from you, what are some reflections about what this has been like for you And what's standing out to you as you've come to the end of this thought record? Has anything shifted for you? I

SPEAKER_03:

think the new feeling of peace, you know, wherever I land, whether it's, you know, to have a child or not to have a child, I think, I actually, I believe I will be okay either way. So this idea of, you know, calming my emotions or calming my anxiety or calming my fear wherever I land. I think there's this, I mentioned in the beginning that there is this sense of urgency. And while I do need to make a decision, I think that there are definitely a list of pros for both that I could be okay with.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Thank you. You know, one thing that really stood out to me was How much of this is actually about your queer identity and being marginalized and writing and living out a script that is not heteronormative? Because so much of your life and what you've learned and what you're supposed to do with your life and your body is scripted by heterosexual norms and values. I

SPEAKER_03:

think you're absolutely, absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, when we got to the alternative thought, the one you picked was not, like if you said, I will have a purpose in life, even if I don't have children, that would have been very neutral. It would have been about children. But you said, I can be normal, which was a word you denounced earlier. Like, I don't like that word, but you reclaimed it. And you said, I can be normal in a same-sex relationship with or without children. There's something powerful there for me. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We're going to leave it there. Telsa, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for having me, Rahim.

SPEAKER_02:

You're very welcome. Until next time, this was the CBT Dive. If you'd like to participate, go to affectiveconsult.ca or the cbtdive.ca and get in touch. Take care.

SPEAKER_00:

See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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