The CBT Dive

E15 Honouring my identity and being expereienced as righteous

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 15

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Friendships come easily to some of us while others struggle to be seen, understood, and affirmed. In this episode, we explore the story of someone who felt outcast by a group of peers who saw him as inconsistent around his values and behaviour. And, the skills to mend the ruptures were hard to conjure up on both sides of the divide. BrownGayRealness examines his subsequent fears about the possibility of maintaining long-term relationships with people.

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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish mystify what therapy can look like, and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi and welcome to the CBT Dive. I'm excited to have Brown Gay Realness join us today. How are you? I'm

SPEAKER_02:

good, thanks. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm good. So Brown Gay Realness is this fabulous person who's on YouTube and has their own channel. So go check him out. And I'll tell you a little bit about him. So BGR for short is a queer Fijian guy in his mid thirties, originally from Edmonton and living in Toronto. He lives with mild myofascial pain syndrome. And like many of us, he struggles with anxiety. He had some awful side effects from the use of medication and turned to a spirituality and CBT skill building not too long ago. In September 2020, he suffered a severe concussion, and though he's well into his recovery, he's been more in touch with his grief than ever in the last year. Ah, a lot's been going on with you. Sorry? COVID. Yeah, no, COVID and... recovering from serious injury, dealing with chronic illness and disability, and you've had some interpersonal losses. How are you feeling today? To

SPEAKER_02:

be honest, I'm feeling good. I'm in an okay emotional space. I started really learning how to be authentic with my feelings, but also in a way that's approachable and non-aggressive. and recognizes the other people. So today I'm feeling really good. Well, I'm feeling up and down, to be honest. A little bit of family news has come up. So with every good day comes a little bit of bad, right? So you kind of have to. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I would love for our listeners to know a bit about Brown Gay Realness. What do you put out there on your YouTube channel?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So I just launched and basically my background is I'm a business strategy management consultant. So my background is really in behavior and consumer behavior. Basically, why do people do things? How do we manipulate them? So I've been really interested in behavior and like behavioral psychology is like a side study. I'm actually thinking about maybe going back to school for getting like a counseling degree and maybe transitioning in the next few years that way. But yeah, so I basically work on how to manipulate behavior. And so I decided, you know, a lot of people ask me, they're like, how do you understand, like, how do you have like an understanding of the world and of how things happen? So I decided to put out on my YouTube channel, just kind of like explaining human behavior and the whys of behavior. And I recently just started with some videos about South Asian history and kind of building up into queerness and South Asian history. And then going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects, which is called whiteology. And it's basically a study into the cultural background and behavioral effects of whiteness.

SPEAKER_01:

Fascinating. Well, it's, I mean, and you asked how I'm doing, I'm doing much better. Like now that I'm hearing about this great, like content you're producing. I'm also interested in consumer psychology, although I don't know very much about it. So it looks like we'll be trading skills for some time. I'm going to go ahead and, yeah, go ahead, tell

SPEAKER_02:

me. Sorry, I was going to say, if you're interested, Paco Underhill is a great kind of intro.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so it's called Why We Buy. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I will add it to my reading list. All right. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen and we are going to work through a thought record, which is of course, very different. The topic we've picked is very different from anything to do with consumer behavior. So it'll be new terrain for you, hopefully. Yeah. And I'm

SPEAKER_02:

excited for this as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Great. So yeah, Let's begin with just confirming that this is still the situation you're interested in analyzing. So just for context for our listeners, over the last year, you got into some conflict with some of your friends. One at a time or all together, they kind of decided to continue on as a group, but without you. And it was painful, but kind of made sense for you, it seems like you understood that there was Like you agreed that there was a conflict. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Not necessarily entirely on my part, but I do recognize that like I did have a role to play in it. That was significant.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And just a week ago, was it? You had a fight with your boyfriend. Yeah. Was it a week ago? Like

SPEAKER_02:

four days ago. It was Friday. Ah,

SPEAKER_01:

okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And you leave his place or wherever you guys were, and you run into these like recently estranged friends and you avoided them. So you went a different direction. You didn't want to see them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So my question would be like, so there's a lot going on here contextually, but when you ran into your friends again, this is a group of how many people, four people, five people?

SPEAKER_02:

I think like, anywhere from about like seven to ten people um like a close like six people i guess um but like the group can expand to about 10 people sometimes 12 people um okay yeah but yeah i saw the main group of like six people and uh yeah it was kind of It was a little bit like my first initial reaction was like, I saw, I didn't actually see, I saw one guy who I was kind of like, we didn't end on a bad terms or anything. We just weren't like close friends. We didn't keep in touch. And so I was going to say hi to him. And then beside him, I saw this other guy that I was like, he looked at me and I see the recognition in his face. And like, we locked eyes and I was just like, I can't deal with this. And then like turned my head to the side and then walked around them. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Okay. My initial kind of thought, honestly, like right after, like literally right afterwards, it was like, do you mind if I swear? No,

SPEAKER_01:

go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

My initial thought honestly was like, fuck these guys. Like none of them have bothered to reach out to me more than once over the last 10 months. And like, we have to like, if I see them in public, I'm under this like false, uh, you know, social construct that I have to pretend and be like, Oh my God. Hi, it's been so great. I love you. I miss you. But then inside I'm like, I really actually just don't think that these are healthy relationships.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Possibly are healthy people for me to be around. And maybe I don't bring out the best of them.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so you'll notice we've skipped a couple of columns.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, apologize. I'm just going to slow us down and take us back a little bit. So when you ran into these friends and you immediately avoided them, what did that look like? You took a turn like you went onto a different street?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, no, I literally, cause they were standing on the corner that I had to cross. So I either had to walk through them or like swerve around them. And they were about a total group of about like, yeah, 10 or 11 people.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. And what did you choose to do? Did you just swerve around? I

SPEAKER_02:

swerved around. And were you in a car or

SPEAKER_01:

were you driving?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I was walking. So I mostly, yeah. So like they were all standing on the corner and I was walking up to them. And only one person had noticed me and I was kind of like, thank God. And I was like, none of them else saw me. I'm just going to walk. I'm going to speed up and walk around them before the other guy has a chance to be like, hey. So my first, my like, honestly, I guess like my first initial feeling was like flight.

SPEAKER_01:

Tell me the feelings, flight. So yeah, I

SPEAKER_02:

was like, I was like angry and like also like, just like, fuck this. And then was like, I need to get out of here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely. So flight, anger, sometimes flight is connected to fear or anxiety. I

SPEAKER_02:

think it was a little bit there. Yeah, for sure. Like fear, but like anxiety, like severe, yeah, like fear. Yeah. Because there was these people, there was like one person that I was super close with that had made it very clear to me, like by not responding to me at all in any way over the last like seven months, six months. that they didn't want a relationship with me. And they're kind of like the leader crux of the group. And so the expectation would be that if I saw them, everybody thought that I'm in the wrong entirely. So I should be profusely apologizing or being like, oh, it's okay. But I also felt like I need my feelings recognized. I think that's where the anger was kind of coming from. Being like, I don't want to act fake for no reason when I... I don't deserve an apology, but I just want you to feel like you're sorry as well. I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I hear you. I hear you. I wonder if...

SPEAKER_02:

I just didn't want to, like, I didn't want... I was having this anxiety between, like, being not authentic and, like, being authentic, which would have been, like, very angry. Like, I wouldn't have been in, like, the greatest state to, like, confront them about things, you know?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was just not the time for me to see them. Based on the description of what was going on in your mind and some of the feelings, we've got flight, anger, fear, anxiety, animosity. I'm going to suggest a few feelings. Yeah, okay, great. It does seem like there is a lot of sadness because there's like a sense of loss. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

go ahead. Almost kind of like right immediately after I walked past them, a sense of a little bit of regret.

SPEAKER_01:

And I wonder if that conversation with like the head leader, you know, if that leads to a kind of embarrassment or humiliation. A

SPEAKER_02:

hundred percent, because that's how I exited the group was like being humiliated in front of the entire group. So like the, they, this person was more drunk than I was. I had maybe had half a beer. He had been a few into it thought that i had called him privileged and as well the rest of the group kind of latched on to that and he just like severely humiliated me in front of the group uh made himself the victim and then i walked away and then basically since then there was like no contact almost

SPEAKER_01:

very limited

SPEAKER_02:

yeah very limited contact

SPEAKER_01:

And so you're thinking a lot about how they see you and understand you and the word that feeling where that comes up for me, there is self-conscious.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And like, I think it's because like, I, to be honest, like it feels like it's kind of like passed down a little bit because like my family, it's like just a general rule in us that like, suffer through humiliation with like your head held high but as well that like if you're not showing any reaction here you're like internalizing it

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

and like there's a kind of feeling humiliated yeah it makes

SPEAKER_01:

me feel would we call that

SPEAKER_02:

like the entire situation made me feel like weak as a person because i didn't know really how to um how I wanted to react and how I, how I should have reacted. If that was correct. If I, you know, this idea of correctness, like, was I correct in like my actions?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I'm thinking about feeling words. I'm just thinking. Okay. So when you keep your head held high, is that pride? Is that stealthiness? I'm trying to figure out what the word is.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's like, like the way I understand it in Hindi is like, it's like Swabhimanta, which is like, it can translate to pride or arrogance, but it's more like, so pride would be like gaman and arrogance, which is like something that's like forceful and negative. Whereas Swabhimanta is like self worth. Like I kind of feel like, to be honest, I kind of felt slightly positive because I had felt like, you know, I had spent about six months dealing with like kind of emotional distancing from these people and like feeling like I was invalidated. And then, you know, another kind of 10 months of like being completely estranged and isolated from them. So I had, I felt like I was worthless a little bit through that period. And then like, I felt like I, like part of the, part of the good thing I felt walking away was like, I felt like I valued myself a little bit

SPEAKER_01:

more. Yes. Absolutely. So, um, so, okay. You named the feeling week. Um, and then you use the word swabby month. And is that, is a rough equivalent to that feeling? Unworthy. No,

SPEAKER_02:

it's like a, it's more like a positive word. It's more like, it's more like, it's like, um, Like, I guess you could say self-pride, but like self-satisfaction, I guess. Okay. Yeah. Like trusting yourself almost, kind of.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Yes. Yeah. I love that. So I think we're going to, you know, that's part of the language you're thinking in. And so I think we've got to include that word.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Because I think in Hindi sometimes about my feelings.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, no, and that's perfect. I think we need to capture that. Okay, we've got a good list of feelings. I'm gonna read them out and then just think about how they feel in your body as though you were in that situation. And then I'm gonna ask you to rate them on a scale of one to 10 in terms of intensity. And so 10 will be intense and one not intense at all. So there's flight, anger, fear, anxiety, animosity, sadness, regret, embarrassed, humiliated, self-conscious, weak, Swabhimanta. Yeah? Okay. So how would you rate flight?

SPEAKER_02:

I think flight, angry, fear, and anxiety are all like super high and equal, like nine for all four of those first ones.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Okay. So, and that includes anxiety? Yeah. okay so flight anger fear and anxiety are all nines okay now animosity

SPEAKER_02:

maybe like um like a three or a four and i would say that's almost balanced with this kind of like wistful like sense of love that's like missed like you know what i mean like it's like you can't really hate like be an enemy with someone unless you have some love for them as well Cause there has to be a relationship there to like balance it out. So it's like,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. Does that fit into regret and remorse? Do you think, or do you think that's the

SPEAKER_02:

regret? The animosity and the regret is like the evil, like the four. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So tell me about sadness on a scale of one to 10.

SPEAKER_02:

I think like a six or seven.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And regret.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Like a four.

SPEAKER_01:

Embarrassed in that moment.

SPEAKER_02:

Like a two, a one or a two actually. Yeah. Humiliating? Ten.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Self-conscious?

SPEAKER_02:

Like again, like maybe like a two.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Feeling weak?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe like a seven or eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And suavimanta?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe like about a seven.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I'm just going to organize these a little bit in terms of just the intensity. It's interesting to

SPEAKER_02:

see it like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Like think

SPEAKER_02:

about it in that hierarchy of how I was feeling in that moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's exactly what I'm going to do here is I'm going to try to organize them by intensity so that you can kind of see them grouped together better. All right. So in order of most intense, the least intense, humiliated, flight, anger, fear, anxiety, weak, sadness, suavimanta, animosity, regret, embarrassed, self-conscious. And we know what you did in the moment. You avoided the group. Yeah. By walking around them.

SPEAKER_02:

And I feel bad that I made a pointed note when I locked eyes with one of the guys to look the other way as he was recognizing me. I don't really like that I did that. But it was just my natural reaction in that moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And

SPEAKER_02:

that's the exact moment I think I felt, like, the humiliated flight, anger, fear, anxiety. I

SPEAKER_01:

see. It's like you were found out, you were caught, you were exposed.

SPEAKER_02:

Almost, or, like... Because, like, I feel like that means that, like, I was, like, kind of, like, stalking them. But I feel more that I was just kind of, like, in that moment, I felt like... There was... like the reality where I had like dealt with a lot of my feelings and like the reality that like the theoretical idea in my head that I had dealt with is like presented with me, like right in front of me. And like, it's hard to like, it's hard to like balance the idea of the person that you had to like deal with to overcome emotionally versus the actual person and the feelings of friendship. And love that you might have for them still, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to hold in that moment. It seems like you're talking about behaviorally, you're snubbing somebody, but actually... But I felt snubbed by that. Right, and it feels too painful to hold. You're like, oh, there was a lot here. I'm going to move over to the next column, which is your automatic thoughts, right? So your automatic thoughts are the things that come into your mind in this particular situation. Now, it's particularly helpful, I think, that we've listed out all of the feelings because there might be some thoughts that are connected to the feelings specifically, right? So for example, you mentioned animosity. And then one of the thoughts you also mentioned was no one has bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months, right? I see those as a bit as connected. These are not healthy people for me to be around is another thing you said. And they might think I'm stalking them. Is that, you know, might be a fleeting thought, but it's something that crossed your mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, no, that's like an actual, like genuine thing, just because of the way that these people talk. They have a self-aggrandizing way. A lot of the time, it's like the perception from my side has been that you can't say that you're the hero of your own story because then everybody else is the enemy. You have to understand where your actions were good and bad. But these are the different people that are the heroes of their own story, so everyone else is an asshole. And so it was just kind of like, for example, being called a hypocrite. where I like try to come at people with a lot of compassion and understanding but then like being pushed to my limit and breaking and then being told that I'm a hypocrite for that it's like almost like too much anger because it's like yeah I guess that is a reality about myself that like maybe I am being hypocritical because I have a limit to my compassion right so all of that like just made me so angry it's just like seeing that and like just seeing people that humiliated me and didn't feel bad about it at all And felt that it was deserved, that I deserved it. Or I just don't recognize what they did. Like, it was just like...

SPEAKER_01:

And so in the behavior column, I'm just putting, like, you remember the original conflict and being called a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_02:

And arrogant. And self-centered.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, my goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

Arrogant. Yeah, dramatic. Yeah. that I give them anxiety when I talk to them.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So, okay. I cause them anxiety when I talk to them. Okay. So let's think about some of these thoughts you've got here. First, I want to expand on them a bit. So when you say you feel humiliated, at a rate at 10, can you tell me what thought might be connected to your experience of humiliation? So I'm humiliated because, or yeah, I'm humiliated because, let's start with that.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm humiliated because I was pushed to my limit and it made me realize that like I am a hypocrite, I guess, in that sense. um or i feel like a hypocrite in that sense so i lost some feeling of authenticity for myself and like self-value because i'd always thought that like where i thought i was coming off genuine and like trying to be compassionate and like empathetic and like genuinely trying to be there um it was being read from the start as a complete act and then in the end when i got pushed to my limit that was validated by them okay

SPEAKER_01:

so and then also just

SPEAKER_02:

not having space with them to like understand my experience because they thought it was too heavy

SPEAKER_01:

yeah so there's a sense that they or people

SPEAKER_02:

yeah won't like one person that like took it on them to like speak for the group And so this person said that this is what everybody is thinking and nobody refuted it. And like she, yeah, so.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. This one person who spoke for the group, I imagine that makes you very angry. Yeah. That there's this kind of group. You have a strong reaction to this group dynamic, huh? Of like having a ringleader and the group think. And I'm guessing that's where the anger comes from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think. Yeah, definitely. I think it like goes back a little bit, like being a part of like team sports and being always considered the weak link. So being called out by the ringleader as being the weak link. Yeah. I think honestly, you just said that and that's where it feels like it comes back. Like I imagine soccer.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah, no, that's fair. So according to the ringleader, I'm the, like the weakest link?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay. And like constantly being told how I need to fix myself and like, or being given justification for why I'm being forgotten or why I should not take, like why I'm not justified in having feelings that I

SPEAKER_01:

have. Okay. Tell me about the sadness you experience what what are the thoughts connected to the sadness and regret

SPEAKER_02:

the sadness is that like that again like it was just so easy for them to like cut me out that like makes me feel like again like that like self that like loss of self-value

SPEAKER_01:

like

SPEAKER_02:

you i'm just like easy to throw away yeah so it's like maybe i don't actually bring anything of value to people um that's i think where like the sadness definitely like yeah comes in for sure

SPEAKER_01:

okay i'm gonna read through these automatic thoughts because i've been writing away as you've been talking and trying to put them in different orders so here's what we've got some of the thoughts connected to your feelings in this situation are a one of the things you're saying is some of the terrible things these friends said may have been true to some degree, like being hypocritical. They, so these friends or people in general, won't understand my experience because it's too heavy. According to the ringleader, I'm the weakest link and I need to fix myself. No one has bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months. These are not healthy people for me to be around. I cause them anxiety when I talk to them.

SPEAKER_02:

And that was actually like a specific statement that was told to me by the ringleader.

SPEAKER_01:

I see. And then they think I'm stalking them or they might think I'm stalking them. And I'm easy to throw away. Again,

SPEAKER_02:

that comes from the ringleader. That's like a statement that she said. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

really? She said

SPEAKER_02:

that? Yeah, she said that I was like stalking them and like...

SPEAKER_01:

Ah,

SPEAKER_02:

okay. Yeah. So she threatened to like, she threatened me with their straining order. I was like, you reached out to me and I accepted the olive branch anyways.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Okay. And so, okay. So that's like, that's interesting. We'll come back to it possibly. And the last automatic thought here is I'm easy to throw away. I'm not trading value to other people. Now I'm going to go through some of these and try to refine them a bit. So, Like, let's start with the first one. Some of the terrible things these friends said may have been true to some degree, like I'm hypocritical. So what I wanted to know from you is like, you're kind of, you're caving in a bit. You're saying, hey, there's some chance that that's true. I

SPEAKER_02:

guess.

SPEAKER_01:

And so if you were hypocritical, In what way? Tell me in what way you were hypocritical.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, like maybe it was just that situation. Like, so what happened is a person I thought was a mutual friend of ours who doesn't really have many other friends here. Their mom passed away. So I notified the ringleader who had reached out to me and like we had started communicating again. and asked her to pass it on to the group. And then that's when a lot of other things came out. So then I, at this point was like, I had seen it coming, but also been like, I wanna give someone the benefit of the doubt if she's gonna try and be nice or if she's gonna go back to her old behavior. And so she came at me and where normally I would have been like, yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. came back full force and pieced apart and broke down exactly what she was saying to me and where it was coming from and so she reacted extremely negatively and then said like aha see I'm right like I always knew it you were a hypocrite like all of your all of your compassion and empathy stuff is an act like your understanding for other people trying to tell other people to be understanding is an act because you can't do that yourself and my lasting reaction is that like because of my reaction to her that maybe it is true that like I have like I thought I could always try to be understanding and compassionate and kind because that's how I was taught to be and also how like I found is the easiest way to like for me to have dealt with myself is like if I need understanding I need to give people understanding and space

SPEAKER_01:

yeah tell me about this phrase, my compassion and empathy stuff. So this is something I'm getting a sense that this is about a way of being, a body of knowledge, a perspective, a spirituality. What is that? Because there are other people from the outside are identifying this as quite characteristic of you your compassion and empathy stuff so what does that mean in this context

SPEAKER_02:

like I guess like one of the things they said that I was too being too Hindu um and uh like and these are other brown people right so like they're like I was being too Hindu and I was like I'm not trying but this is just like a part of me like well if you can can you just like separate the Hindu part out of the pie that you give to everybody and I'm like the crust, if the, if I'm the pie, the crust is the Hinduism. It's like very core and fundamental. And like the way that I've been taught is to be compassionate and understanding, you know, like my dad has always been a very supportive person of trans rights of like, of like LGBTQ rights. Like he's been like, let people live how they need to live and how they want to. So like.

SPEAKER_01:

So compassion and empathy rooted in your Hindu beliefs and, and like, yeah. world view has been very significant for you but these folks found it to be how did

SPEAKER_02:

they find it and they found it grating they found that I was trying to be too like they found that I was kind of being like trying to like convert them to my beliefs and I was like no but I was also like I'm used to being around white people that have absolutely no context for my beliefs so I'm fully able to to speak very obliquely and very plainly about like what the reasoning and rationale for what I do is, because it's really sometimes like diametric to how other people are going to act, right? Or their logic. So they, I think it triggered them that like people in their community that are like very hyper Hindu, but like actually like very terrible people. I think I triggered them in that sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Okay. Yeah, no, that makes a lot. That's a good analysis. That makes a lot of sense. And that might be something we come to even when we think about our alternative thoughts. But for now, I want to highlight this hypocrisy. So you said, my compassion and empathy stuff, you know, my way of being or the stuff I purport. purport the stuff I tried to live by is an act because I got very angry with this friend. So in this moment, you couldn't be your ideal self. And what do you think that says about you or what do you worry? It means about your, your faith or your identity.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it hasn't made me question my identity. my like spirituality in terms of identity i kind of wonder because like people always used to turn to me for advice and i think like this girl is a um is a social work professional so i think she got very um like territorial about me offering people advice and i think it is something along that terms um So she kind of has succeeded that like, I don't necessarily feel comfortable giving people advice to say like, it's okay, trust yourself, give people the benefit of the doubt. Because I just, I don't know if I can feel that anymore, like for this one person, but also for kind of this group of people.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So part of this thought is that, I can't offer endless compassion. Which

SPEAKER_02:

I don't think anybody can,

SPEAKER_01:

right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think you had an idea.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But I think you had an idea that you could. or that the compassion would be overarching. Yeah, I did. I thought I could. It would undercut everything, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Honestly, it did.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I can't offer endless compassion, even though I... Want to. Yeah. I want to, but also I thought it was going to get me through everything. Yeah. And so... Your very beliefs are shifting a bit, right? Because you're saying, I can't offer endless compassion, even though I thought it was going to get me through everything. And you're realizing that it's a good concept, but it might be overly simplified in your mind at some point. Yeah. I think this is where the humiliation comes in. What else have you... You've suffered something, and there's a thought connected to that suffering. And I wonder if it's something like, they're right, I don't have all the answers, or I'm still working on figuring out how to connect with people, or is it where the regret comes in around giving advice? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

It's more like... I think it's also combined with the amount of particularly anti-Indian racism that I've gotten this year. I get called the N-word at least once a month. That's not something new, but in the last few months, the anti-Indian racism has started to jump since about January. So I think the two of those things combined... Particularly because like the dot, I'm not sure if you were raised here in the 90s, but there was the whole thing about the dot busters in the 90s in different spots of North America. So that was a real fear for my parents was that in Alberta being like brown kid with a dot on his head is very, very easily picked out. So they would tell me not to wear it. So I only just started just, I put it on in the morning and I just forget about it. I walk out. And then because of that recently, I think I've been getting recognized more as like Paki, Paki Dot, like all of these other words. And I think combining those two things, I'm starting to shift and say like, I don't want to be as open about wearing where the roots of my spirituality are, which I think is also kind of unfortunate because almost literally every other person in my life, except for this group of people, has been like happy to like make acquaintance with me to be like, oh, you're completely like, you weren't raised in Abrahamic thought, right? Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. Look, I appreciate that example, right? Because you're talking about how you get targeted for being visible as a racial minority and somebody of faith. And I don't want to encourage you to be less visible, but I think something is happening here, which is not that I need to be less visible to be safe, but actually something about interpersonal connectedness that maybe needs to change, or maybe you're getting feedback that isn't working. And I think that's where- Am I crossing boundaries, do you think? Well, I'm not sure, but we'll uncover it by the end of this, I promise you. So right now, one of the thoughts is I can't offer endless compassion, even though I thought it was going to get me through everything. And now, so I'm saying like, if that's true, what's the consequence of that for your social relationships? And so not, I need to be less visible, but in social relationships, is there a new belief? Like I, I'm,

SPEAKER_02:

I've noticed this from, and I'm, this is the reason that I'm glad to be speaking with you right now is because like, I'm in the process also of like processing this and like you getting me here to this point is really helpful that like people have been saying, they're like, you've changed a little bit. Like you're slightly more combative. You're slightly more like, I guess that I have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder at times. So I try to be compassionate and kind and everything, but there can be kind of something said that triggers me to flip the switch. And people that have known me for many years find that somewhat inauthentic. So I'm confused right now, right? Because I'm like, okay, I thought I knew who I was, who my authentic self was. And I thought I was presenting that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think it's more people can see the chip on my shoulder. And I

SPEAKER_02:

can be somewhat competitive.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, or they think I'm somewhat combative. Okay, I'm going to pause that there. That train of thought or that cluster of thoughts is really, like, I think we've done some good work there. But I want to... Can I

SPEAKER_02:

get this afterwards, by the way,

SPEAKER_01:

too? Oh, of course. Absolutely. I want to go down to this one where this thought that you said, no one has bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months. And what meaning have you... drawn from that? What do you think that says about people in the world or this group of friends or you? What does it say to you if people can't reach out, didn't reach out to you in the last 10 months?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's, you know, I think COVID specifically has like created a lot of like internal turmoil for people. So I can't like, necessarily say that like this is the be all end all but like I think one of the things I realized about people is that in general like while it's important to look out for yourself and your boundaries people exist in a society and like without creating healthy without creating healthy relationships and connections like we kind of like fall into this cycle of like negative thought at least is what like has come out so this like no one's bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months is like it's not entirely true so the ringleader is the one that she messaged me on world coming out day and then a few months later during Christmas I messaged her back and then we had a sort of cordial relationship back and forth the other guy who I completely wanted to ignore he just stopped responding to my messages, even if I was just saying like, hey, how's it going? Wanted to check in. I saw this new story that's interesting, trying to build the relationship. And then two of the other people both reached out to me once each. And then I got a little bit salty, which is, I'm sorry, I'm human. You haven't talked to me in four months. I'm going to get a little bit salty. And they both were just like, you haven't changed. And then both of them just stopped talking. me as

SPEAKER_01:

well yeah and when you were salty so each of these people a few of them reached out and your anger was you haven't reached out to me in four months and what did that say to you about the quality of the relationship or about

SPEAKER_02:

well like

SPEAKER_01:

the response yeah go ahead

SPEAKER_02:

maybe i am like petty right like the response from to the people was like

SPEAKER_01:

i

SPEAKER_02:

Like I was just like, yeah, I'm just like kind of lonely. I was like, oh yeah, I'm just like kind of lonely or whatever. But like, and then they're like, oh, like you're being dramatic again. Like was there a type of like emotional response? At the same time that raised a little bit of anger in me because I kind of was like, maybe I should just pretend to forget it. And if they're trying to be nice to me, maybe I should just try and be nice to them too. And so I was wondering, I was like, maybe I'm petty, but then I also kind of, I've had this thing since I came out that... Tell me. I don't want to lie. If we're trying to build a relationship, if we are trying to build a relationship, I'm always trying to say things in the kindest and least impactful way. Yes. But I'm also not going to hide my feelings just because I don't think that's deserved for you or for me. I spent 25 years... before coming out, hiding my feelings, hiding myself. And that did so much damage. I just, I don't, I can't do it anymore. You know, I'm 33 now. It's been eight years since I'm out this other than this last year, I've been happy as myself, you know, being honest, being artfully truthful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I just want to clarify this point. So you're thinking that, you know, when you're in contact with these friends, you are, it's always important for you to be honest and, but that honesty pushes them away or gets in the way? Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

I think because like, and that's the thing is like, I have like a completely different perspective from people.

SPEAKER_01:

And this

SPEAKER_02:

is not me being arrogant. This is literally something that's taken me years to realize and tons of turmoil to overcome through. And so if they would say something, I would say, well, I actually kind of don't agree with that. And it would be me being combative or me being negative or me putting them down. And I've kept on trying to reconfigure how I could say those things or how I could offer a different perspective without being competitive. If someone's asking for advice, if they're not asking for advice, I don't offer advice. But if someone's like asking me a question about what I think about something, I'm not just going to blindly say I agree with it.

SPEAKER_01:

No, sure. Well, if they're asking, there isn't anything to agree with, right? Or if it's a conversation

SPEAKER_02:

too,

SPEAKER_01:

right? Right, right. Okay. So I just, okay. So there's this idea, this thought that you had that no one has bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months. And one of the thoughts that crosses your mind, you know what, maybe I am petty because you were salty when they reached out at month four. And we're thinking like, okay, well, What does this say about the nature of my relationships with people? And the follow-up thought is I want to be honest, but that maybe gets in the way sometimes. And I'm connecting this to another thought you had said, and tell me if it fits in here. People won't understand my experience or my perspective because it's too heavy. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_02:

I definitely feel like that is accurate.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I like that you use the word too heavy. Can you tell me what's too heavy about it for other people?

SPEAKER_02:

Just the glib reality of the Fijian experience, right? Like... uh my particular family so if we're going to talk about it so yes left india in the 1890s on my dad's side came over and were indentured laborers for sugar slaves for five generations the first two generations were basically like whipped into fields all the time to clear the land right at this time as well the natives weren't subjugated so the indians were the intermediary between the natives and the white people and the natives were also cannibals until 1964. um then the white people were the overseers but because they had the guns and the weapons like the indians were like in the majority so we dominated the culture for both groups in language and religion but um we were kind of like always aggressed upon by like mormon missionaries jehovah's witnesses seven-day adventists everyone right and then moving to canada so like my grandmother overcame my great-grandmother overcame all that there was a scheme in the colonies to take all the gold out when they were decolonizing. So they came in and said, okay, put all your gold jewelry up. Here's a very usurious rate. And if you can't pay it back, then we'll take the gold. But she ended up paying it back within six months and became a money lender, paid for my grandfather's bookstore, which gained us access and privilege. And then my dad moved to Canada. we thought it was over, but then being part of the first wave of Indians, the Fijians were part of the first wave of Indians in the 1960s and 70s, especially the Caribbeans as well. Canada was super racist before 1978. And so like a lot of that racism gets like really like built in and pushed down. And it was only the rise of George Floyd that started to bring those stories up from my mom and my dad that they didn't tell each other. So I was getting all of this. So then on top of that, you add in that like the eighties, nineties and early two thousands for Fijians, because we were relegated to that same kind of like ghettoization that impacted Caribbean, Indo-Caribbeans and black Caribbeans as well. And black people, Somali people, Arab immigrants. There was a lot of gang violence. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot, of gang violence in Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary, between like, including Fijian gangs, including the native gangs, Vietnamese. So like a lot of these people just like, they're like, and then, so when I would mention that, like, well, this is what Indian people say about Fijian people, they'd be like, ah, like we don't actually think about Fijians. And it's like, that is such a hurtful statement to me to say. It's like, it's almost like, well, it's like Indians themselves want to see the group as like a minority in this country, india people versus the rest of the diaspora are exactly the same way that american white people are to the rest of the white diaspora like you know like dictating culture and like um like evidence and weight and like validity right um so it's just like when i try to explain these things to them or these contexts they're like we just have no idea to understand um And that ringleader girl, which will always try and draw it back to her parallels. But at the same time, it's like, they weren't necessarily the same. There was some overlap because like being another South Asian group from the West as well, like there was some overlap, but again, not really. Yeah. And like, and then especially me being like the only Brown kid for like 10 years of schooling. Right. And like, my elementary school was between two Baptist church. So like every fucking Sunday, there was missionaries to our doorway, moved to a new area of town. And that's when they started releasing census data to churches. So then literally every Sunday for seven, eight years, again, it was like, it's almost like this violence that's like weighed upon you. You're just like continuously asked, like, are you sure you want to be Hindu? Are you sure you don't want to be part of the majority? Are you sure you don't know? Like, sorry. Yeah. That was

SPEAKER_01:

a moment. No problem. All right. Take a moment. Take a deep breath.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry. That was a moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Take an actual deep breath with me, please. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

Sorry. No, no, no, no. You don't have to apologize. This historical context is very, very important, right? It is incredibly important and valuable that you understand yourself and as a person that's located in a historical context with a history of persecution and marginalization and it seems to me like there's a kind of activation that happens for you when that history isn't seen or recognized, or it's actively dismissed in the present by people who you understand to have quite a bit of representational power, and they're not willing to acknowledge that. And it's, you know, when you talk about a friend who is part of a dominant group trying to make a rough parallel to what you're experiencing, that I imagine is quite inferior infuriating to you a little bit

SPEAKER_02:

and could i add something is that i think what you're saying is exactly correct and i think like adding into that is that i don't normally share these heavy details with a lot of people um so i think what was kind of like where that sadness i think and the humiliation and the animosity also all stemmed from was that I thought I could trust these people to like see not just the happy comedian side but to understand what's behind that and what I think where the humiliation comes from is that like I feel like sharing my true self I was rejected for sharing everything about me which makes me question whether even like in a relationship a long-term relationship like i have value as that like person yeah

SPEAKER_01:

so i thought these people would be able to see the side of me that's a comedian which by the way i don't think we said in your bio but hi you're a comedian um but also someone with real pain yeah and what was the second thing you said after that the most recent thing um Oh, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That's okay. There's something about this brown group of friends that were interesting for you to be part of, right? Yeah. They were an

SPEAKER_02:

ideal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yes. And tell me about why it was important for you to be around those people and what it's meant for you or what you've been kind of thinking when that didn't work out.

SPEAKER_02:

um like what it meant to be a part of them and like it's funny to say that too because it originally started as me and the and one of the guys the one that everybody everybody hinges around that thought i called him privileged me and him were really close friends and then a few other people kept on joining the group and the group kept on expanding so i think part of the humiliation was being like i was part of this original group of people like i was one that helped build this group of people as well um so like that's where the humiliation comes from i think

SPEAKER_01:

i helped build this group of people and they just

SPEAKER_02:

like kind of threw me away

SPEAKER_01:

yes right so uh and now i'm not part of it. And that connects to this thought, you know, like I don't bring value to people. I'm easy to throw away. Well, it

SPEAKER_02:

was kind of like this group of people that like, so like being a Hindu brown kid, in Edmonton in the 90s and early 2000s, you're an anomaly, right? Like you don't eat beef and that's really funny. So people like my own close friends growing up would try and like trick me into eating beef or pork. And I don't eat either. Familiarly, we don't for generations. And it would be a joke for them. And I would always have to just like, haha, laugh it off. And like, if I got mad, it was me being stupid. If I was being effeminate, it was me not matching to the straight ideal. If I was being too brown, it was me not fitting into the white square box right yeah and then so if it came when it finally came that like I had been dreaming and hoping for this group of like brown gay friends for the longest time because i thought it would at least give an easy access to people just to understand my perspective um which i think is a learning lesson for me to realize that like no we still all have different perspectives but i thought that it would be a group of people that could appreciate all of those facets about me that i could also appreciate all of those facets about

SPEAKER_00:

them

SPEAKER_02:

and uh i think maybe that's where a sense of like loss comes in because now I question whether, well, it's made me take a hard look at like the rest of my relationships and say, okay, you know what? Like an ideal is never correct. Like desire, what is it? Desire breeds expectation and expectation leads to sadness, right? So-

SPEAKER_01:

So hold on, sorry, one second. I got to pause you there. you were longing to be seen and understood by your own people or by this group of people, right? And in a diasporic community, you're all like A people, right?

SPEAKER_02:

A

SPEAKER_01:

people, yeah, exactly. What did you hope your life would be like when you met this group of people? Or what would you be able to do once you had met them?

SPEAKER_02:

To be honest, like nothing different than just to be myself and feel like a sense of, inclusion like a natural inclusion not always feeling like i'm the extended body or the third wheel or um you know if i'm the one that gets the late invitation i shouldn't feel bad about it Or, you know, because, like, I can't necessarily be a part of, like, a wedding group or wedding pictures, even though I know everybody for the same amount of time that's in the wedding party because, you know, the optics doesn't work. And you always got to come back to this, like, I just thought there would be one group of people that wouldn't care about any of these other kind of, like, extenuating factors that make me a takeout person with other people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm getting like deep. Am I like talking too

SPEAKER_02:

much?

SPEAKER_01:

No, you're not talking too much at all. But I'm thinking about when you long to be seen and understood by your own people, maybe one of the deep seated or subconscious thoughts that drives the sadness, the anger, the flight response, all of these other feelings is that you actually, as a result of this experience, are now feeling like I may never find my tribe. A

SPEAKER_02:

hundred percent. That's like 100% accurate for sure. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So let's keep, let's keep this in mind. I'm going to put this in bold. I may never find my tribe. The other thought I'm going to put in bold is people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01:

People can see the chip on my shoulder and think I'm somewhat combative. Yeah. I'm going to erase this one about the ringleader because that's, we need to focus on your thoughts right now. And the last thing I want to, I want to ask you a bit more about is this idea that I cause them anxiety when I talk to them. That

SPEAKER_02:

was told to me specifically.

SPEAKER_01:

That was told to you, but do you think that's true?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, on a level I do.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So now I know historically, socially and politically why that might be right. You, you come with a lot of knowledge. Well, that's not possible. Like we all have baggage. Here's what I'm wondering, right. Is, um, Is there another thought connected to that? So if you agree that I cause people anxiety when I talk to them, is there a thought about like, I'm not sure how to socialize or I worry, I don't know how to connect with people or I worry that I'll be rejected for my baggage or something like that. I'm wondering if there's a connected thought. A

SPEAKER_02:

hundred percent, but it's like, there's like, like this was a very, this group of people. And I think, COVID, like, fossilizing us and not, like, I think if we all had multiple groups of friends to hang out with, this situation wouldn't have taken place. But I think, like, pre this, I was the type of person that, like, Again, I told you all of my vectors. Growing up from a very early on age, I learned that it's my fault. I have to try and make people comfortable because if I'm getting bullied, that's my fault for opening it up to this thing. I would always have to try and find vectors of how to make people comfortable. That's why I'm so good at my job is because I know how to make people comfortable. I can read in on discrete behaviors and I can understand context and intensity. A lot of people that don't understand it want to dismiss it so then what what happened during this whole like kind of six months of like emotional destabilization was like i kept on being told how i'm causing people anxiety and how i'm being the issue and how i'm being the problem and every single time i would try to like re-trajectorize and like find a way to not be the problem it would build up more and more angst inside me and then um lead to me not reacting correctly. And I think one of the, one of the hardest ones was like that. It was like the anniversary of like my rape of my sexual assault. And it had been 16 years since it had happened. So it was kind of like, I'd been alive. I've now been alive for more time than I was before. So then they definitely didn't have any way to like contextualize it and almost just completely like ignored it and glossed over it. And the funny thing is if I talk to any of them about it, it would, the response would be like, I don't remember you saying that. And so that makes me wonder like, okay, again, like, am I that throwaway forgettable person? And like, what am I doing to cause people anxiety that I can fix about myself? And like, is this one group of people a common reaction across the board?

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm glad you asked that. Tell me, is that a common reaction you're getting from other folks in your life?

SPEAKER_02:

Honestly, no, but like, it's like since the destabilization, like I'm just never sure of myself. And like, I do feel like I come off a little bit aggressive sometimes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So if I were to connect this to the thought, I cause them anxiety when I talk to them, but I don't want to make people comfortable all the time. Like you don't want to make that. I'm tired of it. Yeah. That's fair. So I'm thinking a connected thought is like, almost like I don't know how to be with people or I'm not sure how to be with people or I'm not sure how to stay connected. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Honestly, like I think all of those statements is like somewhat true and valid. And I think COVID kind of has to do with that too, because I couldn't find any new friends anyways, because everybody had their close social groups and,

SPEAKER_01:

And what does it say about you when you can't find new friends?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know. And I'm trying to like figure that out. Like,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Cause like when I'm one-on-one with people, when I'm in a social setting, it's very easy for me to meet and talk with people, but maybe I just don't give off this like right digital persona. That's like, this is a person we want to talk to, you know, or I want to actually like have around.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So yeah. We took a lot of your automatic thoughts and I grouped them in a particular way to try to distill them. So anything that comes up that looks kind of like factual. I

SPEAKER_02:

think it's all pretty factual.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So a lot of the things that are factual, we actually want to distill it to something that you make meaning of. So if you say people don't like me, Like that might be factual. I don't know. And then I would want to say, okay, like, and if people don't like you, what does that mean? And you would say, oh, I'm not likable. I would say, okay, now we've gone from something factual to a belief, right? And all we did was shift a couple of words from people don't like me to I'm not likable. So what I'm looking for is something that we've highlighted here under automatic thoughts. That really stands out to you. Now, we're thinking just one automatic thought, one that is what we're later going to call your hot thought, because it's the most salient, the most prominent, and drives a lot of the feelings you were experiencing in the second column. So let's repeat the situation. You're running into estranged friends, right? You're running into them after 10 months. It's a group of about six people, and you immediately avoided them as much as possible by walking around them.

SPEAKER_02:

Not a great moment for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Not a great moment. You felt humiliated, flight, anger, fear, anxiety, weakness, sadness, swabimanta, animosity, regret, embarrassed, self-conscious. What did you do? Your behavior avoided the group by walking around them, looked the other way when I locked eyes with one of them, remembering the original conflict. It started replaying in your mind. There's a kind of rumination where you were being called a hypocrite and arrogant, dramatic, and self-centered. So what are the thoughts that come up for you? Well, some of the terrible things these friends may have said might be true to some degree. Your hypocrisy was, you know, you talk about being compassionate and empathetic, but that was hard to live out when you got really angry with your friend. What did you realize? What does that mean if you can't live by those words? Well, I can't offer endless compassion, even though I thought it was going to get me through everything. So there's something about here about your worldview needing adjustment. Right. And then you say, you know, well, maybe people can see the chip on my shoulder and think I'm somewhat combative. So that might, you know, if that's true, my follow up question would actually be, what does that mean for your future friendships? Or what's a long term consequence of that? Right. Like, I'll be alone or I won't find my tribe or something like that. Now, actually, let's answer that before we go further. If people can see the chip on your shoulder and they think you're somewhat combative, what is the long-term consequence of that in terms of friendships or connections?

SPEAKER_02:

I just don't think I'll be able to build significant relationships the way that I want to, whether it's friendship or otherwise.

SPEAKER_01:

I won't be able to build significant relationships. I'm going to bold that one because that sounds like we've gotten to the belief there. The next cluster of thoughts, no one has bothered to reach out to me in the last 10 months, right? That's factual, but it is a thought you're having. What does it mean or what does it say? Maybe I'm petty or I want to be honest, but that gets in the way. And sometimes they, people won't understand my experience or perspective because it's too heavy. and i thought these people would be able to see the side of me that's a comedian but also somebody with real pain um and so that it also is like maybe factual like this is what i did think so we'd have to go back and say okay if that's true that these people um are not able to see the different sides of you uh what does that say about you or what is that what's the consequence of that what would you say i

SPEAKER_02:

think it consequences that i'm always going to be second guessing myself

SPEAKER_01:

yeah in in what way will you be second guessing yourself

SPEAKER_02:

well i think i'm always just going to be second guessing like whether something I said was because I was trying to be empathetic or whether I was being petty and also whether yeah

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know you're second guessing your motivation like I'm just gonna be

SPEAKER_02:

yeah I guess like unsure of like maybe whether what I said was right to like did I hurt a person by saying that accidentally or Cause my goal is always to try and like decrease pain. And like, I wonder if now that's shifted.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So I will always be second guessing my motivations, beliefs and impact on others. Okay. So if I were to shift that a bit, I'll always be second guessing. Would you, would it be accurate to also say, I'm not sure I can't, would you say like, I can't trust my motivations, beliefs and impact on others? Or should we leave it as I'll always be second guessing?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I think I'll always be second guessing.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Okay, great. Now the last couple of thought clusters here, I helped build this group of people and now I'm not part of it. This means I'm easy to throw away. I'm not sure I bring value to other people. I long to be seen and understood by my own people. consequence or long-term impact, I may never fit in or find my tribe. There's also, I'm going to bold this one too, because it's, it's pretty significant. I'm easy to throw away. I'm not sure I bring value to other people. And then you said, you know, I cause them anxiety when I talk to them, but I don't want to make people comfortable all the time. Right. So the, the, the, the thought that comes out of that, that has to do with you is that maybe, you know, I don't know how to be with and stay connected to people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I think that ties to the second guessing as well, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So we've got a lot of bold, bolded thoughts here. I want you to look at them

SPEAKER_02:

together.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Tell me. Okay. Okay. So you're not going to want to pick just one. I should have guessed.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, no, no. We can pick one. We can pick one. No, no, no. We can pick one. Tell

SPEAKER_01:

me which three really stand out to you. Three is no problem. So three,

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I was going to say the, I won't be able to build significant relationships, the second guessing myself and the never fit in, find my driver, easy to throw away. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And those are related. So yeah, I'm happy to combine those. So I'm going to say here, I'm just going to put these into another column for a second.

SPEAKER_02:

I think actually it would be completely just like, I won't be able to build significant relationships is like the main thing. It's the main one? Worry belief that like everything I think is hinging on. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I'm glad you were able to do that. It just saves me some administrative work. Okay. So I won't be able to build significant relationships. Now, how are you feeling just coming out of that column of the automatic thoughts? Because you've done a lot of work. You've done a lot of digging to get there.

SPEAKER_02:

I actually feel so much better after that column. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

There's a lot to sort through, huh?

SPEAKER_02:

It's nice just to have it grouped together. It's not just streams of thought that kind of interact. It's like, oh, but this, but that. But when it's grouped together like that, I can understand it.

SPEAKER_01:

There's a lot to sort through when it comes to your identity, your history, and just even your intelligence, right? Your mind pulls you in many different directions. You've also talked about, and this wasn't lost on me, you talked about an experience of sexual assault. I didn't go into it because it wasn't super relevant for that particular thought, but I can also appreciate how past traumas connect to our anxiety and shame and discomfort or uncertainty around people so i just want to put that out there i just

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

in this particular thought record we're not going to be drawing that out but i want to acknowledge that that's there

SPEAKER_02:

thank you

SPEAKER_01:

yes um all right so the hot thought that we're working with is i want people to build significant relationships now that comes from somewhere, right? It's not just a thought. It's almost a belief you have after your estrangement from these friends. What's some evidence that supports that, that you won't be able to build significant relationships?

SPEAKER_02:

Like, I think I kind of understand where it stems from, but I think, like, most recently, like, type of things, I think I would think is that, like, maybe I cut too quick from relationships, but then as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you done that? Have you cut people off too quickly?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't think so, but it is easy for me to like make a change. And I think that's where it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What does that mean? It's too, it's easy for me to make a change.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, It's been really common for people to break up with. It's actually more common for people to break up with me when like with gay relationships, a lot of it is kind of built on like an ideal image, I guess. So I match a lot of ideal images, like tick boxes for people. But then when they actually see the depth and they're like, oh, like you like to like paint your nails or like you like to do drag, like I'm not down with feminine aesthetic or you're actually like more religious than I thought you were, things like that. So then those people more often than not tend to cut with me. So then I think maybe as like a self-preservation module, I like... I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time, I might not make an overt effort for people. I actually just realized that maybe sometimes I don't make enough effort with some people.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Okay. Well, we've got a couple of things. So you've had many experiences of being broken up with, right? So that does support the idea that maybe you won't build and you know, build significant relationships. People have also found things they don't like about you, like religion, drag being femme. Are there, are there, are there experiences you've had that are evidence that you won't build significant relationships? I mean, I think the main one is you thought you had found your, your tribe and they let you down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Fully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is like something tied to like my early youth with the sexual assault, but I don't think that that's necessarily relevant to this discussion unless you want me to bring it up. But I think these are like,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. If you think it's relevant, I'm happy to hear it. I think, I mean, everything is part of the puzzle, right? Do you think the experience of the assault, so perhaps...

SPEAKER_02:

So prior to the assault, I was like, this was right around the start of like MSN, like hotmail chat groups. So I was groomed by, I was 13 and I was groomed like online by this older guy and he kind of blackmailed me emotionally and with like other, other things. But then when I was like starting to like, I was developing a little bit of like a Munchausen's, I guess, like identifying with him. And then when I was starting to like pull away, he completely like, you know, cut me off everything, obviously, I guess, for his own preservation, but deleted me from everything. So then there was like this weird sense of abandonment.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. How old were you at the time?

SPEAKER_02:

I was 13. I think he was 28. 13.

SPEAKER_01:

So it, older guy um uh he didn't respect your boundaries when you were pulling away is that

SPEAKER_02:

100 100 and then uh and i'm i'm okay to talk about all this because i've like dealt with many years of like therapy to deal through this so i think it might be helpful as well for other people that have gone through it sure but yeah um Of abandonment. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. At

SPEAKER_01:

age 13, older guy didn't respect my boundaries and created an experience of abandonment. So when we talk about boundaries, right. In the context of relationships, it's telling people, look, when you said that it didn't work for me or made me feel bad. Or we say, Hey, you know, we have this dynamic. We're always, you know, saying mean things to each other. Let's stop doing that. Like it's not feeling good.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And in the context of something romantic or sexual, um, I mean, this guy had quite a bit of power. He's quite a bit older than you. And you're quite vulnerable. I'm thinking at this age, right of 13. And you said manchas and you started to talk about how you identified with him, you felt very connected to him. And then

SPEAKER_02:

there

SPEAKER_01:

was a clear cut.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Did you want to add anything?

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, no. That's good. That's pretty much exactly what you were going to say.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So the message you walk away with is... I'm not worthy. Yes, exactly. And if I tell you I don't like one thing, that means I lose everything. Right? That's kind of the... Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. That's so true.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um... if I...

SPEAKER_02:

Like I don't need to be a doormat and just be like, I'm okay with everything.

SPEAKER_01:

No, of course not. So this is kind of the subtext that you walked away with. Now I'm curious to know, let's move over to the next column of evidence that does not support the hot thought. So here you're sharing evidence from your life recent past, and even earlier than that, where you were able to build significant relationships?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm

SPEAKER_01:

going to start you off, actually. Because I want to ask, this group of friends who you were with, how long were you guys friends?

SPEAKER_02:

So me and S... were friends, like, I think I was one of the first few people that he, like, first few South Asian people that he met in Toronto. We met on, like, Pride Day. And so we were friends for at least, so let's say June, July, August, September, October, November, it's just one of those groups. So we were friends for about six months before the group started forming. And then it was around, like, March. So another... sorry so another like five months so i had known i had known s for about 11 months at that point and then add another so another seven months to that so about 18 months about a year and a half really that like i was So with the core group, it was maybe us for about eight months, I guess, seven months. And with us, it was for about a year and a half. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So you maintain a significant connection to this group. And I get that it started with a few people that branched out. And this was a group of South Asian folks for a year and a half, one and a half years. Okay. So I just wanted to put that in there because I think that there is something about what you're able to do. And then there's something else about... what's difficult. Now, what were you going to say evidence that supports the idea that you're able to build significant relationships?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, well, I was going to say that, um, my, the people that I've actually known for 10 years plus have commented that our relationships have gotten deeper during COVID because I've actually like felt comfortable to reach out to them, um, maybe there's just some way that there's something to do with like that. Knowing where I came from, they understand, they might understand a bit more or like, it's also just kind of easier to talk about things as adults with someone that you saw at a very yard, young, hard times and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So these are friends that you're not super in touch with all the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And like my best friend of 20 years, we've actually like, we have gotten so close now that like she's lived in Vancouver, she lives in Vancouver and I've lived in Toronto. It's been about five years since we've lived in the same city. And we talk, we've talked every day, I think for the last seven months, like we talk every day for like two hours.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So you've given me two very rich columns of evidence for why building significant relationships is might be difficult for you moving forward, but also lots of evidence that shows that you're able to maintain relationships. We're talking 20 years, 10 years. And then when it got to this more recent group, a year and a half. Now, what is a good alternative thought or a more balanced thought to tell yourself when you think about the loss you experienced with this particular group of South Asian folks? I imagine a lot of them were queer.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, except for a few of the girls, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, just about everybody. And so I'm just going to, because that was like your tribe, right? Or the ideal tribe or idealized tribe. Now, what is an alternative or balance that you can tell yourself instead of I won't be able to build significant relationships? What's something else that's actually accurate? So I'm not like, I'm not looking for an affirmation like, you know, people, I don't know, something like I'm a great person and people who don't like me can fuck off. Like that's not, that's not going to be helpful because you're like, it doesn't speak to your sadness. It just makes you more sad. Self-righteous.

SPEAKER_02:

That's

SPEAKER_01:

not going to be helpful. So let's think about what alternative thoughts could be.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I don't know. Like, what do you think? Do you think it has to do with me understanding people and maybe understanding boundaries better?

SPEAKER_01:

Here's what I think. You've had a best friend for 20 years. You've had other friends for 10 plus years. This other group was a group you idealized, I think. And it got intense quickly and crashed. Okay. I think the thought has to be around like, I need to tread more carefully around idealized relationships. I'll write that down. That might not resonate with you, but I'll write it down for now.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, like something that you kind of like, it's not necessarily exactly that, but it might be in the same window is kind of like, like a question I kind of have is like, how can I, not idealize relationships. Because I think, like I said, for me, ideal is desire breeds expectation breeds sadness. That's generally how my life has played out. So I kind of want to approach a relationship with not creating this figment.

SPEAKER_01:

Can you say that whole saying to me again? Sorry? Oh, ideal

SPEAKER_02:

is... Ideal is desire and desire breeds expectations.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, hold on. Ideal is desire. Give me one sec. I need to write the whole thing down. Ideal is desire.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Desire

SPEAKER_02:

breeds expectation.

SPEAKER_01:

Breeds expectation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And from expectation is like sadness or disappointment because it's like you're never going to get exactly what you want, right?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it's rare. It happens for people. Sometimes it happens for people, right? But like you have to make compromises with yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Now, so ideal is desire. Desire breeds expectation. And from expectation is sadness and disappointment. Now, I like that. that could even be your alternative thought. It could be a good reminder. It is a bit platitude-y. A

SPEAKER_02:

little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like an aphorism.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like it could, like frankly, it could come from a book that was sold at Urban Outfitters. And so I want us to think about this because this has been an important mantra for you, but I want us to think about reshaping it so it's specific to relationships, you know? Yeah. Now,

SPEAKER_02:

should it be something like, cause like, I think the two main things is like, I just really, I don't want to idealize any relationship. I don't want to idealize anything. I just want to like live in an approach to reality. Okay. Maybe that also sounds like too, too platitudy.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no, that's okay. No, no, no. The platitudes are like, they're, they can be good. Thank you so much. And then you might try to offer it to somebody else. And that's where you get a miss in your group of friends, right? So I'm thinking there's something here about the words I live by are open to, are not fixed. They're open to being changed when I'm meeting other people.

SPEAKER_02:

Could it be like, I need to be, or, I need to be agile, understanding people and my relationship, Suzanne?

SPEAKER_01:

I need to be agile in understanding?

SPEAKER_02:

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01:

It does. Or

SPEAKER_02:

like understanding my relationships in context with people quicker?

SPEAKER_01:

Tell me more about what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think like maybe I need to... Just be aware that there are going to be situations where like how I might approach it is not necessarily the most comfortable.

SPEAKER_01:

So how I approach issues, situations, topics.

SPEAKER_02:

Is not right for everybody, really. How I approach something is not right for everybody. And that's what I try to say, but I think it's better kept as, like, a statement coming

SPEAKER_01:

across. So be honest with me here. Do you sometimes impose that on people?

SPEAKER_02:

Never. So, like, I learned really early on, like... I had a friend's dad call me out. They said, like, I would say, you should try this or you should do this. And they said, never should on someone's head because you're shitting on them. So I, like, try and make a very big intent to, like, not use the word should, but, like, oh, like, I've tried such and such or, like, one option could be. But maybe even that statement is not correct for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Some people might not want to hear it.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm curious to know if some of the missteps in these relationships have been people perceiving that you're giving them a lot of advice.

SPEAKER_02:

I think, honestly, I think that's where a big issue comes from. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So when I think about an alternative statement, right? So instead of saying, I won't be able to build significant relationships, it might be that... I'm going to try to modify it so I can build relationships if I remember that how I approach issues, situations, and topics is not right for everyone. Not everyone needs it. isn't always helpful

SPEAKER_02:

yes i think perfect yeah no honestly like it's been kind of i've been circling around how to like to be honest like yeah yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and i'm going back to this what we call the platitude. And I'm sorry if that was dismissive. Oh, no, no, no. I

SPEAKER_02:

love platitudes and aphorisms. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

you love that. Okay. And they drive me nuts because people will say to me, I don't get it. That doesn't mean anything. So ideal is desire. Desire breeds expectation. So we've dealt with that. Now I want to talk about sadness and disappointment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So just as... I'm going to say just as... People will disappoint me. I

SPEAKER_02:

can disappoint others.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And how does that get repaired?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, to have like a recognition, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I need to recognize. But what happens when you... And this is part of where I've been having a sticking point in dealing and overcoming is that I feel that I need some, not even contrition, but I just need some recognition. And overcoming that emotional hurdle is harder by not being given that recognition.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Of my feelings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I was wondering what you think of that.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Give me one sec here. So just as people will disappoint me, I can disappoint others. What I'm hearing you say is mending ruptures for you means... I

SPEAKER_02:

need to be accountable.

SPEAKER_01:

Me being accountable and... Another part of that is seeking and seeking explicit recognition for my experience. That seems to be quite important for you.

SPEAKER_02:

How come you put me instead of I? Is there like a reason or is

SPEAKER_01:

it just like... Mending ruptures means...

SPEAKER_02:

No, no. I just mean, like, is there, like, any, like, psychological reason behind it?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, girl, no. No, no, no, girl. We're an hour and 35 minutes in, and my writing, like, it's just...

SPEAKER_02:

Don't worry, don't worry, don't worry. We're almost there. We're almost

SPEAKER_01:

there. We're almost there. And I'm not complaining about it. I'm just... I think I'm just, like, the language is slipping away from me a bit. That's

SPEAKER_02:

all. No, it looks good. Look. Yeah. It's fine. Totally.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Alternative thoughts. I need to tread more slowly when I... When... I

SPEAKER_02:

like that statement, actually. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. When I have idealized people...

SPEAKER_02:

And friendships.

SPEAKER_01:

Or friendships. I can build relationships if I remember that how I approach issues, situations, and topics is not right for everyone, and my advice isn't always helpful. The last one, just as people will disappoint me, I can disappoint others. Mending ruptures means me being accountable and seeking explicit recognition from my experience. Let's make that a separate thought. Okay, so you've got these four thoughts. I like

SPEAKER_02:

all

SPEAKER_01:

of those. You like all of them. Okay, I want you to really think about these and tell me which one really stands out to you one that you think is most helpful that isn't necessarily platitude but is actually one that you have the most belief in you say like i read this thought and i really believe it's true i really believe it's helpful right i keep going to i

SPEAKER_02:

keep going to just as people will disappoint me i can disappoint others i don't know why i just like feel like the most drawn to that it's either that or i need You need to tread more slowly when I have idealized people or friendships.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

But I think that just as people disappoint me, I can disappoint others. That's like, feels true.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So you know what? I think what we're going to do is go with that. So that I'm highlighting that as your alternative thought. The other ones play a role because it's part of a web. Like we don't, like our thoughts are webbed. They're not singular. Okay. But that's the most prominent one that you're selecting. I want to go back to the feelings list we came up with and really think about our present feelings. So think about the situation again. You run into your strange friends and you walk around them. A lot of thoughts come up for you. The main one that you're thinking is I won't be able to build significant relationships. It's not at the forefront of your mind, but it is what's driving. It's like this subconscious thought that's driving a lot of the feelings. A good alternative to that is just as people will disappoint me, I can disappoint others. When you think about that, how do you rate the extent to which you feel humiliated with the new thought in mind?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe like a five.

SPEAKER_01:

Your sense of flight?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's still pretty high. I'd probably still feel about like a seven.

SPEAKER_01:

No problem.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. There's no pressure to have these numbers go in either direction. It's just an experiment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I'm just thinking about like, given everything you said, like, what would I feel in that situation? Like with this?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I get it. I would want to run the hell away from there too. I totally get it. Where is your anger at?

SPEAKER_02:

I think it's three. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say three again, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Anxiety.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe like a four, a little bit more than fear, but not like that much.

SPEAKER_01:

Feeling of weakness. It's not physical. Maybe like a

SPEAKER_02:

four. Yeah. Like a physical, physical weakness, like a four. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Is it a physical weakness or like I'm a weak person?

SPEAKER_02:

It's kind of like a both feeling. Okay. Like it's like, it's like one of those, like, I feel like a weak person, but I also just feel like I've lost like

SPEAKER_01:

physical

SPEAKER_02:

strength. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And sadness?

SPEAKER_02:

To be honest, like, after this whole discussion, I kind of feel like a one.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Around the sadness.

SPEAKER_01:

I

SPEAKER_02:

think I feel like a seven. For sure. But, like, in a different sense of, like, rather than being, like, oh, like, I didn't bow my head unnecessarily. Like, I actually just, like, in this situation, I just feel like I would feel sad. Self-possessed, like strong.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, okay. Okay, so it takes a different tone. Animosity.

SPEAKER_02:

Still maybe like a three.

SPEAKER_01:

Regret.

SPEAKER_02:

Again, maybe like a three.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Embarrassed.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe like a one.

SPEAKER_01:

And self-conscious.

SPEAKER_02:

Again, like maybe like a one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Have there been any new feelings that have come up for you as you think about, like, just as people will disappoint me, I can disappoint others?

SPEAKER_02:

Slightly freeing. You know what I mean? Like...

SPEAKER_01:

So you feel liberated?

SPEAKER_02:

Slightly, like... I've never taken what other people do to heart, but I've always taken how I am perceived and how I do things as like, this is how they should be done. Not how they should be done. Maybe it's a little bit of arrogance in that sense, but.

SPEAKER_01:

So you feel not humiliated, but humility.

SPEAKER_02:

Feel humility. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay. Grief, curiosity. Rationality.

SPEAKER_02:

It's kind of like, have you ever had, have you ever had a close person die?

SPEAKER_01:

So

SPEAKER_02:

I would say like after for, for Hindus, we do like a year anniversary. It's quite common for almost every culture. Right. Yeah. But it's kind of like cathartic. Like, you know what I mean? Like I'm, I'm not angry at, I'm just kind of like, I'm, I'm like, there's a relief kind of like, it's like that. Yeah. Like, you know how when someone dies, the first thing that happens is sad all over again. Right. But then the second time it just gets like a little bit easier. And then by like the third, you're kind of like, Oh, I'm sad, but I'm also like, I'm okay to like, look at it and be like, okay, you know what? Like I had a good year and a half with a group of people that I felt up until a certain point appreciated me and saw me. So like, maybe I can walk away with that.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. You've okay. So there's lots of new feelings that have come up here. Liberated humility, cathartic, resolved appreciation, acceptance.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Now I'm going to share a couple of reflections. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'm gonna ask for some of your reflections. So the purpose of this thought record was to think through a situation in a linear way to see if we can change how your thoughts impact your feelings, right? And how they shape the ways in which you move forward. Now, of course, there's a complex history here. You talked about assault, you talk about your family history, understanding yourself as a marginalized person, There is this longing and wishes to be part of a particular group. And I think, you know, as much as this may or may not be a group you go back to, because therapy is often an acknowledgement of systemic issues, but it focuses on individual awareness and change. It seems to me like you're also appreciating that there are parts of you that you lead with or parts of you that could be combative or antagonistic. And those are pieces of you that are forms of communication. You want to be seen, heard, reassured, loved. And whatever happened in this dynamic, You got the opposite of that, right? You got like rejection, ostracization, et cetera. So I think that's something to think about. Like, what does reconciliation and mutual accountability look like in relationships? Like, can I say I'm sorry? Can I modify my behavior? Can I ask people to explicitly, you know, apologize? acknowledge that my experience is different without dismissing it or washing it away. I also think it's very possible that this might not be the group of friends for you, right? But there is something troubling, not troubling, something that just requires a bit more attention if we get white people to listen to us because, you know, because we can, because we're like, oh, we're banking on their white guilt to be able to hold space. But than we're not used to. We don't have the skills then to deal with people who experience the world more laterally, power-wise. It's a new context. So from what I'm hearing in your trajectory is that you're entering into a new space. You had a lot of hopes and dreams about what that space would be, and you're in a process of finding your space in that. And it's new for you to... to not be given the kind of space you have been in the past. Right. Yeah. So those are just some of my reflections. What has this process been like for you or what are some reflections you've come up like that have kind of come up for you?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I honestly, I feel because even just this morning, I was kind of going through that rumination cycle, but even just like being able to one, have someone else like hold space for me to just hear me out and not try and like both sides it. which like I know that there's always both sides to a situation, but it was nice just being able to like lay my thoughts out in a linear way and not have someone try and both sides it and tell me where I could be wrong and why my feelings might be invalid or why the other person's feelings are more valid. I definitely, I feel a lot better through this exercise. I'm not going to lie. Like specifically to this situation, it's helped me like, contextualize a lot of things. One thing you said actually just really resonated with me and I don't know how to move forward with looking into it and approaching

SPEAKER_01:

it. I'm going to stop the screen as you tell me this last thing so we can both be on the screen nice and big. What's the thing that stood out

SPEAKER_02:

to you? The last thing that you just said really stood out to me was about moving from a hierarchical power structure as a person that has a significant context and moving into this kind of lateral power structure. And like, it's almost like one, it's like, I've been so used to fighting for space and respect, not fighting, but like not being combative, but like having a

SPEAKER_01:

defined space. There's a fight. Yeah, I get it. I totally, it's a symbolic fight. You take it with you. Yeah. And so like,

SPEAKER_02:

moving into a time. Also, I think an era where like that's not needed, but in some ways that almost feels like a complete disregard for the context. Because like, let's be honest, like things haven't been easy. They only just got easy in the last five years, six years. But, you know, growing up in my, up to my mid-twenties.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Being called the F word, being called a F-A-G like on

SPEAKER_01:

the street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Very common. And so that's, I think, you know, we have a history and with that history comes a narrative, a story, and we want to honor that story in history without being overly committed to the story. Cause that story might not. It's taking over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're, just treading new waters and you're apprehensive and cautious and still trying to find your tribe. And I hope that that happens. Right. Thank

SPEAKER_02:

you.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, but you said earlier, you know, like I bring a lot of baggage. I think

SPEAKER_02:

she travels with a whole entourage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Like I didn't want to comment on it quite then, but I think, I think what it is is, uh, I think that energy gets extinguished or more contained when you feel emotional safety. So it's not just about you having baggage. It's about you're coming into spaces with like looking for a kind of safety and you might be a bit more combative or willing to attack someone if they're not providing it or if they're letting you down. right? That sounds

SPEAKER_02:

so true. Oh my

SPEAKER_01:

God. Where the compassion needs to come in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That sounds so true, especially when it's with dealing with my parents, but it's like,

SPEAKER_01:

okay, I'm out too.

SPEAKER_02:

And they're actually like, okay with it. But it's like, I understand exactly what you're saying. And that says right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

My friend that brings us to the end of our session today.

SPEAKER_02:

So much.

SPEAKER_01:

You're very welcome. Can you tell folks where they can find you again? If they want to follow your

SPEAKER_02:

work? Sure. So you guys can find me at Brown Gay Realness, Brown Gay Realness on YouTube, and then on Instagram, Brown Guy Realness. Yes. You just Google one or the other and you'll find them both.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, great. Well, I hope people follow your stuff. You're very welcome. I hope this has been helpful to our listeners. I hope this has been good for you. You are welcome to connect with me at any time if you want to be a guest on this show. And thanks for tuning in. Take care.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. And I would love to have you as a guest on my show sometime.

SPEAKER_01:

Done.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at thecbtdive.ca. You can also listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts. To follow Rahim on social media, check out ladyativan.com. See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

Host