The CBT Dive

E17 Performative activism and the betrayal of a close friend

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 17

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If you were called out publicly (or worse, cancelled altogether), would your closest friends stick by your side and be there for you? In this episode, we examine the impact of being betrayed by close friends on social media for their own self-preservation. We also explore how the loss, grief, and trauma can permeate all future relationships and leave you with self-doubt anytime you decide to trust someone. 
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish What therapy can look like and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello everyone and welcome to the CBT dive. Today I have the pleasure of working with Andrea. I met Andrea on my travels a few years ago when I was presenting in a conference in Georgia. Andrea is 50 years old. She's a fabulous writer. I know because I've read her books and recommended them to other folks. And she lives in LA where all the famous people live. And She has dogs. She loves them. And before we jumped on this session today, we were thinking about what the best way to spend a Friday is. And it turns out we have similar ideas about how to pass time on a Friday afternoon or a Friday morning, as it were in L.A. Andrea, how are you today?

SPEAKER_03:

Hi, I'm pretty good. I'm a little tired, but I'm good.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Andrea, I want to start by asking you a little bit about what you either know about cognitive behavioral therapy or what your relationship to counseling has been in the past. You don't have to share too much, but like, have you gone? Have you liked it? Has it been helpful? Do you hate it? Are you scared of it? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I'm a lifelong therapy attender. So I have been in therapy for 25 years, not continuously, sometimes on and off. I've done a whole bunch of different modalities, including Freudian analysis back in New York City in the day and a bunch of CBT and more recently in the past, like eight years dialectical behavior therapy, DBT. So most of my experiences have been with cognitive behavior therapy. And I think therapy is like a necessary part of life. I think everyone should be in therapy and more than once therapy has literally saved my life.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. I'm so happy to hear that. You know, sometimes I talk to people and they think, oh, you're, you're, Like I told someone yesterday, I'm looking for a schema therapist. I want to try that. And they were like, but what's the problem you're focusing on? And I'm like, girl, just getting through the day. There's so much to process. There's so much to process, right? So I appreciate sharing this virtual space with you as somebody who's keen on therapy. My hope today is that some of the skills you already have are brought in to this space because You know, all of our skills need sharpening, and this could be a way that you begin to think more, and that could be helpful for you. Maybe you'll find it too easy. That's another risk we're taking. And you'll be like, eh, I didn't really learn anything. But, you know, one thing I've been telling my guests is that even if you're really good at something or you have a lot of exposure to it, having someone coach you through a particular process can be nice, right? That's why we go back to therapists over and over. All right. I am going to go ahead and share my screen. And when I do that, we're going to look together at the thought record that we're going to be working on today.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Do you see that thought record on your screen, Andrea? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. And when you've done CBT before, has it looked like this? Have you used a thought record or do you think you...

SPEAKER_03:

I've never used a thought record.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, okay. So with CBT, there's different entry points. Some people do interventions that focus on the thoughts and see how they can impact your feelings and behaviors. And whereas other folks might say, we're going to focus on behaviors. So they'll say, let's do behavioral strategies. Let's do behavioral skills. And I think when you talked about DBT, a lot of the entry point for that is behavioral because you notice a feeling, but you don't think about all the thoughts so much. You interrupt that line of emotional intensity with the behavior. So The situation we're going to analyze today is something you had told me about prior to our recording. My close friend Carly posted awful things about me online and stopped talking to me after I was called out on social media by someone else. Now, this happened some time ago, right? Was this approximately one year ago?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, a year ago.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And are you friends with Carly at all now?

SPEAKER_03:

And,

SPEAKER_02:

you know, because this is a big situation, I'm looking for a bit more, just a hint of more specificity. So I'm most curious about when the difficult feelings come up for you now. Is it when you look at pictures or is it just when you think about what went down? I'm thinking about what's the moment, you know,

SPEAKER_03:

when

SPEAKER_02:

this comes back for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. It comes back for me more than I want it to. I'll say that. Yeah. In other words, it's unexpected sometimes, right? I don't have to, like, I don't follow her on social media anymore, but she's in my circle, both personally and professionally. So inevitably she pops up in a conversation or online and, And or the kind of site of the call out was on Facebook.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And Facebook is sort of ubiquitous and everywhere. So I feel like I go back to the event itself, the call out, and then how everyone around me reacted to it.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like several times a week. Okay. It just pops back up in my head.

SPEAKER_02:

And is what activates it when her name or her work shows up in some way?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And also sometimes it literally just pops into my head.

SPEAKER_02:

Like when you're walking, for example. Right. You take your dog for a walk. Like

SPEAKER_03:

I'm getting ready to go to sleep and like it pops. it sort of pops up in my head and I'm, I mean, in my case, I'm like, I'm like drafting a letter to her or an email in my head. Yeah. Or I'm analyzing, I'm reanalyzing the situation.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. You know what? That's very helpful because when we refine it. So the whole situation that you've named is important because, but usually the situation ends up being context because this precise time that we pinpointed is like when you're getting ready to go to bed. And sometimes your reaction to that is going to look different or your thoughts are going to be different than if we were talking about, you know, a time when her name comes up professionally, right? Because when her name comes up professionally, you might be thinking, you know, I wish she didn't, for example, you know, if it was my field, I wish this person didn't get referrals, because I don't like them, something like that. Whereas at a different time, you're thinking more about interpersonally, like Like the loss or being misunderstood. Like a different thing comes up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I want you to think about the same situation or the context of the situation, but more specifically when you're getting ready to go to bed. Andrea, what feelings come up for you when the situation is activated for you and you're about to go to bed?

SPEAKER_03:

Grief.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Betrayal, frustration, anger, sadness, a feeling of being misunderstood. Yeah. Like a lingering feeling of confusion about why she did it. I'm still just not... Why she did it. So there's still like confusion there. And. And then a kind of like. Judgment of myself for not for trusting her. For like thinking that. Like I definitely, I sort of rate and judge myself. Like, how did you get in the situation in the first place? Like, how are you friends with someone who would do this to you?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yeah, that's an interesting one. I don't know what that, I put down judging self. I don't know another way to label that as a feeling, even though I know there probably is a word for it, but we'll come back to that. Are there any other feelings that come up for you? You do have a good list, but.

SPEAKER_03:

No, I think that's, I think that's

SPEAKER_02:

good. That's it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Well, I'm going to add, I'm going to, I just like to name a few more and then you can tell me if they fit or not. Is there curiosity?

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Relief?

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Isolation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Self-doubt. Uh-huh. You just said confusion. It's like bewilderment almost. Uh-huh. Do you feel self-critical?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, that's like my default.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So that's

SPEAKER_03:

my every day. That's my baseline.

SPEAKER_02:

So when we combine judging self and self-doubt and self-critical, the word that comes up for me and tell me if it fits is like shame or embarrassment.

SPEAKER_03:

I think shame. Sure. Shame.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. You said sadness and you said grief. Often what goes with grief is also loss. Like I think they're close cousins. Grief is often our response to loss, but sometimes people experience them separately. I don't know. Is that true for you or are they one in the same?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. They're kind of one in the same for me, I think, grief and loss.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's great. You know what? I'm going to just put them together then, if that's okay. So we've got grief loss, betrayal, frustration, anger, sadness, misunderstood, confusion, isolation, self-doubt, self-critical, judging self, shame. Okay, we've... We've got a good list. Now you're thinking about, this is the moment when you're getting ready to go to sleep and this enters your mind. I wonder if like the way you described it, even like in your mind, you're drafting a letter, there's a sense of overwhelm. Like this thing takes over. Like you, it's almost like you get possessed by it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I mean, I'm a ruminator in general. Yeah. And so I have intrusive thoughts that I sometimes feel like I can't control. And

SPEAKER_02:

of course,

SPEAKER_03:

when I'm going to bed, I want to relax. I want to unwind. I actually don't want this shit popping in my head right before I go to bed.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So there's a few words coming up for me. Rumination, overwhelmed, and loss of control. Because you wish you could put this away, but you can't really. You're overcome with it. Okay, now we maybe have too many feelings, but that's okay. That's how complex humans are. All right. So in this situation, you're getting ready to go to bed. You're thinking about the closest friend who posted awful things about you online. I want you to rate each of these feelings for me on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most intense and one, not at all. So how would you rate your sense of grief and loss? Betrayal.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

frustration.

SPEAKER_03:

Five.

SPEAKER_02:

Anger.

SPEAKER_03:

Seven.

SPEAKER_02:

Sadness.

SPEAKER_01:

Five.

SPEAKER_02:

Misunderstood.

SPEAKER_03:

10.

SPEAKER_02:

Confusion.

SPEAKER_03:

Five.

SPEAKER_02:

Isolation.

SPEAKER_03:

Sorry, that's my dog.

SPEAKER_02:

No, that's great.

SPEAKER_03:

They're doing construction next door.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I thought you wanted to rate the feeling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Isolation. Like a

SPEAKER_01:

six.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-doubt.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-critical.

SPEAKER_03:

Ten.

SPEAKER_02:

And judging self for trusting this person.

SPEAKER_03:

Ten.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, shame.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Rumination.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01:

Four. And

SPEAKER_02:

loss of control.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Eight. Andrea, is there a hint of envy at all?

SPEAKER_03:

No,

SPEAKER_02:

no. Okay. I just thought I'd ask because it seems like the way I'm, I'm one of the ways I'm imagining the scenario and you'll tell me more about it in a bit is that maybe there was a kind of competition or that somebody, somebody put you down so that they could get ahead. I mean,

SPEAKER_03:

that's like been suggested to me, right? Like, like, Like a few people have kind of explained it to me as, Oh, she was trying to save her own ass.

SPEAKER_01:

She was

SPEAKER_03:

trying to sort of distance herself from you so that she didn't get sort of caught up in the drama. Right. So she was sort of trying to signal like, oh, you think I'm really close to that person. And so you may have some thoughts about me, but like, actually, no, I'm going to go for the jugular right away so that you know that I'm not with her or like her.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So in the automatic thoughts column, one of the things I'm putting down is one of the thoughts that comes up is, Carly acted this way out of self-preservation because that's the idea. I mean, maybe it didn't originate from you, but it's been implemented. It didn't

SPEAKER_03:

originate from me for sure. It was not automatic, but yes.

SPEAKER_02:

No. But it

SPEAKER_03:

crosses my mind now because several people have said they think that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. So- I'm just going to go back a step to the behavior column because it's particular when you're getting ready to go to sleep. What are some of the things you do? So in your mind, you draft a letter, you reanalyze the situation. Is there anything else like you count to 10, take a sleeping pill, do some meditation, send angry, you write out an angry email and then delete it. You watch TV.

SPEAKER_03:

Right, right, right, right, right.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I always draft the emails in my head. I don't always write them. In this case, I haven't written one for this situation. But sometimes I do write them and delete them. I mean, I'm really trying to sort of like empty my brain of thoughts. Like there's so much residual noise at the end of my day. And I sort of want to put it like on a shelf and say, okay, like we're, you're going to deal with this tomorrow because right now, like you need to rest.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So you try to do self-talk essentially.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I need to rest and put this on a shelf for now. And I like that. That's really interesting. That's really great. I'm guessing the self-talk is a bit, it's a bit of a battle. It sounds like you have to push through it right. Until you, I guess, until you like tire out.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I'm just trying to identify, I just want to make sure we're on the same page here that you haven't engaged in behaviors that are counterproductive or causing you more distress or harm. No. Okay. Great. So the automatic thoughts column is really about what comes into your mind when you're getting ready to go to sleep and you think about the situation with Carly. And the first thought that I put down there wasn't even one of yours. So tell me what one of yours might be. So, for example, when you think maybe I'll make that a bit more specific. When you feel when you say you feel. betrayed. I feel betrayed because... I

SPEAKER_03:

really had this idea of our friendship as being intimate and of her really seeing me and caring for me. So... it seems like a total about fit. It doesn't make sense in the context of what I thought our relationship is and what, who I thought she was. And

SPEAKER_02:

another thing,

SPEAKER_03:

confusion,

SPEAKER_02:

but that's okay. They can, they can, they can overlap. Right. So, cause you alluded to this earlier when you said judging self, you said, I judged myself for, um, You know, it's kind of like, exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So I, I judged myself for trusting her and also, you know, opening up to her. We had just probably like nine months before that gone on vacation together and had some like really intense talks. And I had been really vulnerable with her. more so than ever before in our relationship. Like we both joked at the end of it, that like our relationship had like leveled up as a result of some of the things that happened. And then we had to process and she was there for me, like in a really intense, loving way. And so I, So I felt like we moved into this like new phase where she really had my back. She sort of unequivocally had my back. And that was like a central kind of feature to the relationship for me at that time.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So this seemed like literally the opposite of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So how did I... have this experience where I thought like this person, 100% has my back and loves me and cares about me. How is it possible that she could do this?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Like I've got to, I've got to have misread something or, or read the situation incorrectly.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So now we're saying that as a result of this person's duplicitousness, is that a word, or duplicity? You're thinking, I might have misread this person, right? And that's essentially when somebody's this duplicitous person What does it say about you for having bought into one of their sides? One is that I might have misread this person. I imagine there's some pride you have around being able to assess who is trustworthy and not, and this might have thwarted that a bit.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty guarded sometimes. I feel like I have this sort of tight inner circle and that tight inner circle really gets to see every side of me, me at my absolute worst and me at like my most open or needy or right. And so like, that's not like a thing I just like drop on anyone.

SPEAKER_02:

No. So what does it mean if, you let someone into that inner circle and they're a bad fit or like they weren't intended to be there. What does that say about the inner circle even existing or you being able to be vulnerable moving forward?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it just doesn't feel safe. So yeah. So I feel, I feel more distrusting. I feel, and I feel less safe.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. And so as you meet new people or even current people in your inner circle, this distrust gets activated. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So would it be fair to say you've had to become distant from people in your life currently as a protective mechanism?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I feel like it's almost like the circle tightens, right? Like then I begin to sort of assess in that like hypervigilant way, like who can I really, really trust?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And who's really like my ride or die?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And who might just sort of like jump ship at any moment.

SPEAKER_02:

So I have to tighten my circle further before being vulnerable. I'm also thinking here, if that's true, if you have to tighten your circle and it's hard to trust people, what does that mean for your life, your relationships, your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_03:

Just that I feel more isolated and alone. And this definitely happened during the pandemic. So it's like kind of a bad combination.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No, I bet. I bet. And when you think about, so you say I feel more isolated and alone. I'm wondering if the thought there, it's actually shifting over from like a thought in this situation to maybe an underlying belief. Maybe that I'll always have to be protective or people will always try to take advantage of me. I don't think I can ever fully trust anyone. Are there any beliefs like that that are kind of simmering?

SPEAKER_03:

I have a belief that people can turn on me.

SPEAKER_02:

And is it fair to say people or anyone?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's like, so when the whole context of this with the Facebook group was like a lot of people turning on me, but, and that felt horrible, but yeah, I didn't necessarily have close relationships with everyone in the Facebook group. Right. So it's like, I could say about several of the people, like, you don't know me. Like you're, you know what I mean? Like you're seeing this in really black and white circumstances and you're just like jumping on the bandwagon of like, let's hate on me. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So it felt like there was like a clear divide there of like people who just don't know me. And so it's like, and I sort of, I'm not invested in them. You know what I mean? So I'm like, like, they're

SPEAKER_01:

sort of

SPEAKER_03:

like, fuck you. But then there are people who know me and how could you sort of like turn on a dime?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. If people could turn on a dime, I'm curious to know, what does it say about the world for you? I

SPEAKER_03:

mean that it's unsafe.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And If I'm going to the thought all the way at the top where Carly acted this way out of self-preservation, that's one of the thoughts. If that's true, what's the... What does that mean for your relationships in general? So not just that they're unsafe, but that... I don't know. I'm wondering if there's something else.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's like that... There's a limit to people's loyalty,

SPEAKER_02:

right?

SPEAKER_03:

That like people can be loyal, but then to a point, and then it's like, oh, I gotta get the fuck out of here. And the only way to do that is for me to actually like throw me under the bus.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. When you think about the grief and loss piece, is it loss of the entire, is it about loss of this person? Is it loss of a larger community or is it more loss of the community because of this person?

SPEAKER_03:

It's loss of this person for sure. Like it's, I thought I could count on her. You know, like I counted her in this sort of like charm circle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So that takes me to your self-doubt and your self-criticism. So if you think you can count on someone and it turns out You can't. What does that say about you, Andrea?

SPEAKER_03:

That I have bad judgment. That I've like misread the situation.

SPEAKER_01:

That

SPEAKER_03:

I've misread the person in front of me. Because it's like, if you quiz me, if you gave me a quiz like a year before and said, how likely are these people to betray you? Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And you just like made me fill it out. And it was about like 20 people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

feel like I would have rated Carly low, really low, actually. You know, there's other people who I'd been like, I don't know, I haven't known them well enough or long enough, or maybe we're like, you know what I mean? But

SPEAKER_02:

yeah,

SPEAKER_03:

I, I felt pretty, I would feel pretty confident before this, that she would not do this to me.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Now, One other thing I'd like to ask you in relation to this is, I think it might be context. From what I'm understanding, you were called out on social media. So you posted something someone else didn't like. I know you a little bit. And from what I know, you likely tried to be accountable in all the right ways. And you're talking about some of the toxic things that do end up happening on social media. And here, it seems like people who you thought would engage in a more rational accountability process with you did it. They completely abandoned you and you, and you called you out and said awful things about you and you lost a lot of community. Is that about sum it up?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. So

SPEAKER_02:

there's this kind of shunning that you experienced. Yeah. And, So even though the loss is about this person, the other thing I'm wondering is, is there a thought there about having lost notoriety, career opportunities, things like that? Like, is there a loss of... That

SPEAKER_03:

definitely happened. I mean, it's not a thought. It actually happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And... As a result of that, does that change how you think about yourself? Like I'm no longer this, or I can no longer do that. I

SPEAKER_03:

mean, honestly, because I feel like I've had a lot of time to process this.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, if I'm being honest, I feel like it really spurred me to assess the community to begin with and how people were treating each other. And I call it like, get out of the sandbox. There was some like real junior high mean girl bullshit behavior that I felt like, when all was, when the smoke sort of cleared, I was like, do I want to beat, like, do I want to invest my time and energy into this group of people who will like turn on a dime and go after sort of anyone they want? And they, and all of them kind of join, you know, it's like, it's like everyone was just sort of on this like group think situation,

SPEAKER_01:

right?

SPEAKER_03:

Where it's like, That's part of the other reason that the Carly situation hurt was because she actually had a choice to not say anything.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

So no one said, hey, Carly, you know this person. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

No one said that. Carly could have silently observed the situation. Some people silently observed the situation and then called me, right, offline.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Talked to me, supported me. Some people just went in for the jugular. And I felt like she went in for the jugular when she could have literally just sat back and not said anything.

SPEAKER_02:

And not said anything. Okay. I'm just making a note here about something. Okay. So... one more question that i have for you is about this statement you made about i have bad judgment um is that is that specific to this situation because you were blindsided or is that is there a larger trope there where you've felt perhaps I'm just throwing this out there, perhaps in the past that you've had bad judgment or not good boundaries and you thought you'd overcome that or, or gain skills in that area. And now this feels like a setback of sorts.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. So I don't think of myself as having a lot of self doubt.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

In general that I, I feel like I have very strong intuition and, And I listen to my gut. I listen to my inner voice. And it has mostly served me really well in the world. I feel like I can read people really well. And I'm emotionally intelligent,

SPEAKER_01:

socially

SPEAKER_03:

intelligent. And so it's not really a recurring theme for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not. It feels, that's why it feels a little like, yes, like I was blindsided.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So what I wrote down was it's hard to rely on what I thought was strong intuition. So here's what I'm going to do, Andrea. I'm going to read out this list of thoughts. Some of the thoughts that Well, most of the, okay. So the thoughts that don't have arrows beside them are kind of the things that are top of mind. They come up really quickly for us. And then the ones with the arrows are the ones that we've distilled a bit. And the kinds of things we've done to distill it is we've taken what might sound more like an objective fact and tried to say, well, what does this mean if it's true? What does it say about me if this is true? Or if this is the case, what is the consequence for my life, my relationships? Or what does it say about my past, present, and future? So we've got this situation. You're getting ready to go to sleep. You're thinking about this thing that happened with Carly. You feel grief. Betrayal, frustration, anger, sadness, misunderstood, confusion, isolation, self-doubt, self-critical, judging, self-shame, rumination, overwhelmed, loss of control. Here are the thoughts that go with those. Carly acted this way out of self-preservation. There's a limit to people's loyalty. I can't believe I trusted this person. I opened up to her and was very vulnerable with her. We leveled up. I thought I could count on her. And so the consequence of this or what this means is or for you is maybe I have bad judgment. It's hard to rely on what I thought was strong intuition. I thought our friendship was intimate and that she really saw me and cared for me. She had my back. So what does this say about you, the future? Or what's the consequence of any of this is true, which of course is true, but I might have misread this person. It doesn't feel safe to be vulnerable, even in my inner circle. I have to tighten my circle further before being vulnerable. It's always possible that people can turn on me. And now that includes close friends. Does this capture a lot of the things that go on in your mind?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Is there one that stands out to you? Preferably one that's got a little arrow beside it. I

SPEAKER_03:

guess it's the last one. It's always possible that people can turn on me now. And now that includes close friends.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So what I'm going to do is I'm highlighting that one and we're going to call that one. your hot thought. So a hot thought is the thought that's the most salient or the most prominent. It's the one that drives a lot of the difficult feelings in this particular situation. And so you've picked, it's always possible that people can turn on me. And now that includes close friends. Before we go further, I just wonder, this idea of people turning on you, like, Is it the kind of work you do or the kind of, is it an LA thing? Is it something, I'm just trying to figure out, like, there's kind of a slightly cynical slash hostile sentiment under it. And I just wonder, is there something I'm missing or I need to know about this?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, this experience was really profound and really painful and really traumatic for me. And so it's like Carly's like a piece of it. But there are a lot of people who I've known for decades who I haven't spoken to since this happened.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. I hear that. Totally.

SPEAKER_03:

It's like... Yeah, I think it's just had a profound effect on me because

SPEAKER_02:

it

SPEAKER_03:

was such a shit show. And I understand the larger context because like this is happening kind of in circles everywhere and online, but like it really was like a bloodbath. And certain people's participation in it hurt more because of my relationship with them. But like the whole thing as a whole was, was really traumatic.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Fair, fair. Now, Andrea, what we're going to do is we're going to analyze this hot thought. It's always possible that people could turn on me. And now that includes close friends. We want some evidence to support this hot thought, which won't be hard because you told me about Carly and all these people from decades that you've known. So let's start there. I'm just going to say evidence that supports. I'll say Carly in particular. And the other evidence is people you've known for decades. These are friends or colleagues or community folks? Yeah, so they're

SPEAKER_03:

friends and colleagues. people I've collaborated with on projects, people I have personal relationships with, who I socialize with outside of the group, people who've known me for a really long time.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And before this event or after this particular event, have you always... Not always. Have you had any other experiences that people could turn on you? Specifically people who are in your close circle?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Can you take me back to a time when that happened? And you could just share as brief, like,

SPEAKER_01:

I just need

SPEAKER_02:

something that kind of.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. So two of my closest friends were a couple.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And, um, I know them both forever. I consider them chosen family and they had an incredibly difficult, contentious, like horrible divorce. And I ended up being the main support system for one of them and was there like for the daily, like bursting into tears, horrible crying trauma, just she was going through it. And I was really there for her. I validated her. It was just an awful kind of situation. Right. Of course. And I knew like more of the inner workings than anyone else. Right. And so, and there was just a lot of really bad behavior on the part of her partner, you know, that, and so, A year after they divorced, I found out that they began seeing each other again.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

And so I questioned my friend and was like, wow. Didn't see this coming. And essentially, she began to sort of pull back from me. And I feel like it was because she knows I know where all the bodies are buried, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So it's like in order for her to be able to make sense of being with this person who mistreated her so intensely that I was witness to, she sort of had to be like, let me back up because I don't know, I might have something to say about it. And so essentially I feel like We could no longer be friends because she was like, this relationship with her ex-partner is really important to me. And that and my relationship with me can't exist.

SPEAKER_02:

I see. You know, both of that situation, and I think I'm guessing the social media one, if there was a similarity, it might be that you're under the assumption that if you are being helpful and being accountable and doing the right thing, that'll lead to a good outcome. And that belief might have been really undermined for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll leave that on the back burner for now. But this evidence is good, right? It makes sense that you would think I really got to be distant from people. Now, is there evidence that does not support this idea that you have to be super, super careful, even in your close circle of friends? Like you did say before that, like, you've had a good intuition for the most part in your life. Right. So I'll put that in. Oh, I put goose. I've had a goose sense. I've had a good sense. of people in my life prior to this? I

SPEAKER_03:

guess my other evidence is just that there are people that I've been friends with for a really long time who I've gone through shitty things with who haven't abandoned me over them.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so I've had friends who have lasted through difficult times and they haven't abandoned me.

SPEAKER_03:

And then I also guess like, I feel like there are people in my life who don't just sort of like dismiss me or cut me off. You know what I mean? That are willing to stay and figure it out.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. You're feeling... You're having some feelings at the moment. Are those feelings almost in part like gratitude for some of these folks who've stayed? It just seems like the emotions amped up a bit when you were talking about the good folks in your life.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I do. I feel grateful that I do have people in my life who... I can a hundred percent be myself with and who see me and who are not sort of quick to like turn on a dime kind of.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not in the business of diagnosing, as in I'm not allowed

SPEAKER_03:

to. Oh, really? You're a therapist.

SPEAKER_02:

I know it's different in America versus Canada. I'm allowed to help someone understand their diagnosis, but not provide the label. But I'm going to tell you right now that your friend sounds like someone who has overdeveloped a strategy to both attach and then attack. And that might come from her own complex trauma. I don't know. That sometimes shows up in people who struggle with certain personality disorders. But people don't talk about those when they're struggling with them because they're quite stigmatized. Right. So I'm just putting that out there. I don't know. You might know that person well, and they might've disclosed something like that to you. I don't know, but it's just something I'm seeing if that helps give some, a way to contextualize this really bizarre behavior on her part of, of, of turning on a dime, as you said.

SPEAKER_01:

Great.

SPEAKER_02:

Andrea says, We are in the second last column. And this column is about coming up with an alternative thought or a balanced thought, something that will help you get to sleep at night, will help you make sense of the situation. Something that is different from the only way out is for me to be more cautious about who I let near me or that I can't trust my own judgment, right? So what would that alternative thought be, do you think? And we can come up with several of them.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, it's really simple and very black and white, but sometimes it's not about me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No, I love that.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. In other words, I often, in conflict with people... sort of jumped to like all the way, all the things like I did wrong and all the ways that I sort of fell down or miscommunicated and have this idea that like if I would have done these 10 things differently, the outcome would be totally different. But I've learned in my 50 years of life that actually sometimes you could do all, you could do all the things over differently and then you can have the same outcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Because the other person is like going through their shit and it triggered or touched on something that's theirs. And it had so much more to do with them than it has to do with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Just typing some of this out over here. Yeah. So sometimes it's not about me. Instead of telling myself I could have done things differently, I might have to accept that the outcome is heavily dependent on the other person.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I wonder if there's a thought here about just the communities you run in and something about displaced anger or scapegoating. or canceling, is there a thought there that, is there something there that we just need to acknowledge or address?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, which is that like people are just traumatized people, like traumatize other people, hurt people, hurt other people. The context for this very much felt like people kind of reliving their own traumas. It felt so personal because they were saying my name, right? Because they were saying like, because it was focused around me. But then in hindsight, it's like, wow, people were fucking like working out their fucking shit all over the place. And I was like a convenient, you know, lightning rod or I almost became sort of metaphorical

SPEAKER_02:

like

SPEAKER_03:

it's not about me right like it almost became it got to a point where it's so extreme that it was like wait wait wait wait like let's go back to the facts of what actually happened I did not go on a shooting spree and kill people and murder people I did not wake up in the morning and intend to harm people in my community. Right. So this escalated to a place that really went sort of beyond the actual facts and events.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

You know?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm making up my own alternative thought based on what you're saying and we'll see if it fits. So I'm an individual in a system and can't be equated with the harmful system. I deserve an opportunity for accountability and healing. Does

SPEAKER_03:

that fit? Yeah, and just that the principles on which this community is built around things like transformative justice, no one actually enacted any of those values. Yeah. And this is one of the things that bugs me about Carly is like in passing, sometimes I'll see some like philosophical thought of hers that's like deep and about like empathy and healing and being kind to people. And I'll be like, uh, hold on. You know, like what I want to do is just like, you know, reply to their Instagram and be like, hold on. Like this, it sounds cute. And this makes for like a great personal philosophy, but just so you know, like you completely abandoned these principles when you were dealing with me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And you know, it's interesting. You say that like right now I'm wearing the shirt that says abolish the police.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I know people who are abolitionists, um, and have been for many, many years who have in certain situations certainly called the police. And I don't want to eliminate the nuance of whatever they were going through. But why I'm bringing that up is I think you need to have the kind of like insight, reflexive practice and backbone to like say that I'm also not perfect or I'm figuring this out or maybe I'm realizing I don't have the answer in this moment. And it seems like you were around folks who you, like I said, Maya, you let this person into your inner inner circle, and they let you down. Um, I wonder if you know, when you said sometimes it's not about me, based on what you know about Carly. And I had, I had suggested this earlier, not knowing her at all. But Is she unwell? Does she struggle with some significant patterns of attaching and attacking?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I feel like she suffers from depression and anxiety, which every fucking person I know does. Yeah. That's like everyone's baseline.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

there was like a triad relationship that she was in where she like super freaked out on one of the people. Okay. And it got like real messy, like real fast. I only had her side of the story, but, um, in hindsight, it, it seemed a little, it seemed a little like black and white and, um, no room for like the benefit of the doubt

SPEAKER_02:

okay so i can still trust myself i may have overlooked um a mild red flag I don't know, because you were, you were swooned by her. It seems like, I don't know if you, it doesn't sound like you had a romantic relationship, but you were like, you were swept up in the magic of her.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So what I've written here is I can still trust myself. I may have overlooked a mild red flag because of all the good. Another thought that I think about is, you know, Like if you felt like you, actually I'm going to scratch that. I'm thinking about your hot thought being about fear that people close to you could betray you. Is there something that really speaks to that? So you should be able to trust yourself more and You've already said overall, I have good judgment. I don't know if there's something else you want to put in there. I

SPEAKER_03:

don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to read these alternative thoughts. Okay. And then you tell me which one you like the most slash believe the most. slash feel, you know, that resonates with you. So you're getting ready to go to sleep. You've got all these thoughts. You want to write that letter. What brings you the most resolve? Sometimes it's not about me. I can still trust myself. I may have overlooked a red flag because of all the good. Instead of telling myself I could have done things differently, I might have to accept that the outcome is heavily dependent on the other person. Hurt people. hurt other people, and I was caught in the crossfire of someone else's trauma. I am an individual in a system, and I can't be equated with the harmful system. I deserve an opportunity for accountability and healing. That was mostly my thought. I extrapolated from what you said. And people in my community weren't ready to engage in actual transformative justice. Which one of those really stands out to you, brings you comfort, you believe that.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, my instinct says hurt people, hurt other people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I just feel like it's a way to access like a little bit of empathy also.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely.

UNKNOWN:

That

SPEAKER_03:

Like she, that she did like really hurt me, but it didn't come from a place of like, I wanna be a horrible person. It came from a place for own unresolved stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So, okay. So in a way you're kind of saying like the targeting came from a place of self-preservation. Or maybe not even self-preservation, but just her own traumas in a way.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Like her reaction is informed by her history, her, you know what I mean? Like

SPEAKER_02:

her

SPEAKER_03:

history, her experiences, her trauma, her triggers, like her patterns. And, um, and so there's a whole piece of the puzzle. That's again, not about me.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay, so this idea that it's not about you, you said that it's like brought up a new feeling, which is empathy. On a scale of one to 10, how much empathy do you feel? When you think about the new thought that hurt people, hurt other people, and it's not about me.

SPEAKER_03:

Then 10.

SPEAKER_02:

Like you're flooded with empathy?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. I can

SPEAKER_03:

instantly access. I can just instantly access her pain. And I know some of it, right? Because I know her, right? So I know some of where the pain comes from. I don't know all of it, but I can instantly see that she's in pain.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. How would you rate the grief and loss on a scale of one to 10? As you think about this new thought in the context of this conflict and when you're getting ready to go to bed. I

SPEAKER_03:

mean, I still feel like it's, I feel like it's like a five or a six.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah. Look, it's okay if it's higher. There's no, there's no way that these feelings have to go.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So

SPEAKER_02:

grief and loss is still high. Betrayal.

SPEAKER_03:

Now that's lower, probably like a six.

SPEAKER_02:

And frustration.

SPEAKER_03:

Like a three.

SPEAKER_01:

Anger.

SPEAKER_03:

Like a three.

SPEAKER_02:

sadness that might go up.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I mean, what was my sadness before? Yeah. Maybe like a seven. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That makes sense. Feeling misunderstood. I

SPEAKER_03:

still feel misunderstood. You

SPEAKER_02:

know, So I'm happy to leave it at a 10.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I mean a nine. Like I still feel misunderstood.

SPEAKER_02:

One thing I'll say about misunderstood is that if we agree that you were hurt somewhat deliberately, but because someone felt like they were next or they had to save themselves, right? then you weren't necessarily misunderstood. You were, you were targeted or you were scapegoated. Right. But I can appreciate the feeling is still there where you're like, I feel like people just aren't getting me. They're not hearing me. So I'll leave it there. Did you say nine or 10? Nine. Nine. Okay. Confusion.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, way, way less confusion, probably like a two.

SPEAKER_02:

Great. In isolation.

SPEAKER_03:

Like a three.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-doubt.

SPEAKER_01:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-critical. I

SPEAKER_03:

mean, that is my baseline. Five.

SPEAKER_02:

And judging self for trusting this person.

SPEAKER_03:

Two.

SPEAKER_02:

Shame. Two. Almost at the end here. Rumination.

SPEAKER_01:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Overwhelm.

SPEAKER_01:

Zero.

SPEAKER_02:

And loss of control.

SPEAKER_03:

Zero.

SPEAKER_02:

Zero. Are there new feelings that come up? Like feeling tired? Or exhausted? Depleted? Yeah,

SPEAKER_03:

I feel tired for sure. How tired do I feel? No, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Some new feelings that have come up.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. Feels a little like Clarity? Clarity of feeling?

SPEAKER_02:

Not really. I sometimes like to say, no, you know what? Clarity is fine. Sometimes I use the word resolve, but that's a different feeling.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. The edge is off. That's also not a feeling, but... It feels less charged. It feels softened.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, when you say less charged, I think, can I say extinguished? Like the fire extinguished? I

SPEAKER_03:

wouldn't say extinguished. Okay,

SPEAKER_02:

okay, okay. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

But I would say like dampened or something.

SPEAKER_02:

Dampened. Okay, look. We've got a lot of feelings. This is very good. Andrea, my question to you is how, like reflect on this process with me. Do you think it's helped you work through it? This challenge, I know this is a small piece of a larger pie that you had experienced, but it was one of the relationships that you singled out because it hurt the most. Yeah. So what has your experience been working through this thought record?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I feel like I have like, again, I feel like I want to use the word softened. I feel the whole thing feels less, charged to me um that also could be a function of time um I guess it helped me articulate some things that I feel like I knew but I hadn't really said out loud about the situation um

SPEAKER_02:

It seems to me like the main thing that has happened or one of the main things is that you've regained a sense of trust in your own self and in your friendship network and group.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Um, and you've been able to kind of balance out, like you've got tons of folks who have stayed with you and figured things out. And then there was tons of folks who left and all that tells us is that, um, there's some level of unpredictability that's normal when people have trauma or competing things going on.

SPEAKER_03:

Right, right, right. That makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The other thing, you know, like I think when anger goes down, in particular anger, it might be something else, But when anger and betrayal go down, I think that's one of the key things that allows for empathy to show. It allows space for empathy to show up. But because you experienced betrayal and it felt unfair to you, you might be committed to the anger because you're committed to ideas of fairness. And then when you talk about this person responding from a different place in their mind, body, history, you destabilize the idea of fairness. Like the rules of the game change in a way.

SPEAKER_03:

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And it's also tiring, not just because you've been exhausted through this process or because you're tired from grieving, but tired because like it makes it so that figuring out people is like, it's like a lifelong endeavor for a lot of us.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_02:

then we think, oh my gosh, I still, when will I get it right? Or when will I figure it all out?

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's hard.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'm going to leave it there. Is there anything else you want to ask or share before we end today?

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

No. All right, Andrea, thank you so much for participating in a moment. I'm going to stop the recording. We can debrief, but thank you so much for being here. And yeah, I hope

SPEAKER_00:

this was helpful. Take care.

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