The CBT Dive

E18 Self-criticism as a motivator or reinforcer of low self-worth

• Rahim Thawer, MSW

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You have a work assignment but you avoid getting started, worry about failure, catastrophize, and then negate positive feedback when it's been submitted and reviewed. Sound familiar? In this episode, we explore a common but frustrating pattern. We query the possibility of Adult ADHD and locate its roots in childhood family dynamics. Sebastien leaves the session more insightful about how he came to believe that self-criticism was a good motivator. 
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish mystify what therapy can look like, and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_02:

Hi, Sebastian. How are you? I'm great. Thank you very much. How are you? I'm good. Sebastian, where are you zooming in from today? I am zooming in from sunny Singapore today. Sunny Singapore. And can you tell me about, like we're operating in two different parts of the world. I'm curious to know if CBT and psychotherapy is as popular in Singapore as it's recently become in North America.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd like to think it is. I'd like to think that among Singaporeans, at least, there's a bigger push or I'd say a bigger awareness in terms of therapy, in terms of CBT, in terms of mental health, especially with the past two years, one and a half, two years, everyone's on lockdown, everyone's mental state is just going whack.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, yeah. I mean, I can relate to that. Do you want to share... just a little bit about what makes you interested in seeking out mental health support or even your interest in mental health interventions? I think I seek

SPEAKER_01:

it for more selfish reasons. Especially due to the pandemic situation, some of the underlying mental issues I've struggled with has made a very interesting appearance grand appearance you could say flared up and many things have been triggered and unearthed and i think now would be a fantastic time to kind of have them addressed okay

SPEAKER_02:

and

SPEAKER_01:

uh

SPEAKER_02:

For the listeners and viewers, what we know about Sebastian so far is that he's 34 years old, lives in Singapore, is married, works in marketing, and some of the things he's juggling with involve good old family responsibilities and transitioning between jobs or through different roles in the same workplace. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. Okay. So here's what we're going to do. I'm going to transition to our thought record because Sebastian and I, we have identified a situation that he feels would be useful for him to process. All right. Sebastian, you can see that okay? Yes, I can. All right, great. So the situation we're looking at today is we're You're in the midst of a work task, right? What I would say is like a fancy marketing job, which I imagine you have mixed feelings about. And you're in the midst of a work task and you have this sense that you're underperforming. So it's basically, there's a feeling you're having of... Uncertainty or self-doubt, right? And one of the examples of the task would be something as simple as reviewing a document. Yeah. How often do you have to review documents? I'd say for my role on a daily basis. Okay. So you have this experience almost every day? Yes, that is correct. Okay. And does this... In this situation, is it a document that you're reviewing that later has to be looked at by someone else? It does normally. Okay. And has it been assigned to you by the same person who reviews it? Yes, correct. Okay. And is some of your uncertainty, unsettledness, self-doubt, is that connected to the person themselves, either their role or their personality? Yes. That you're going to be reporting to?

SPEAKER_01:

I wish it was. Unfortunately, it's not. Okay, so you feel fairly certain. You're like, this has to do with me. Yeah, so it feels a lot of it has to do with me because this is also something that occurs on different tasks that is assigned by different people to be reviewed by different parties.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, perfect. So we've got our situation. During a work task... And I have a sense that I'm underperforming. So you're reviewing a document, right? So let's just think about the situation as reviewing a document. And let's come up with a list of feelings that describe all the things you might be feeling, right? So I said self-doubt already. I imagine that's true. What's another feeling that comes up for you? Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

A feeling, would it be conflict? A feeling of conflict counts as a feeling. Yeah, it could. Tell me more about the conflict. It's self-conflict of whether am I doing it right? Is there a better way to do it? Am I putting enough effort into it? Am I not putting enough effort? Am I putting too much effort into it? Ah,

SPEAKER_02:

okay. I'm going to label that as uncertainty, right? And I'm going to come up with a few words that describe what I think I've heard and you let me know if it's correct. So uncertainty, inadequacy, self-conscious, am I doing too much? Am I putting enough effort? There's like a fear of criticism or there's a criticism.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think fear or criticism is a valid one.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I'm going to say fear separately, and then you're self-critical, I imagine. Yeah. Okay. And when you're self-critical, you're judging yourself. Would you say you're judgmental? Yes, I'm judgmental. Okay. Against myself. Huge disclaimer.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah, yeah. So here are the feelings we have so far. Self-doubt, uncertainty, inadequacy, self-conscious, fear. critical, judgmental. How about worry or anxiety? Is that present?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that is present.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Would you say worry and anxiety or just worry or just anxiety?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say a mix of both. Okay. What about stress? Do you feel stressed out? Well, Yes, yes, I do. I do

SPEAKER_02:

feel stressed, though. Okay. I mean, worry, anxiety, and stress can seem very similar. Yes. But, you know, if I were to distinguish them just briefly, I think I would say worry, sorry, stress is often the kind of thing that's normative or normal to experience when you have a task to do or many things to do, because the stress is just about It's like a pressure being put on your resources, right? We're just like squeezing you out in a way. That's the stress. And then whether or not you'll perform well or your concerns around how you'll be evaluated or whether you'll get it done. To me, that sounds like worry and anxiety would be like almost a physiological stress. And sometimes if it is a cognitive, it could be a disproportionate cognitive response where your people will say, I have racing thoughts or I'm spiraling or my chest is pounding. So anxiety in a way is like the physical response to stress. And the worry is like the evaluation of like whether you think, how you think you'll do. So all in the same family, but it's worth putting them separate. Are there other feelings you would want to put down? I think you've quite adequately captured quite a bit of them. I'm going to ask you if there's a few others. Excitement? No. Eagerness? No.

SPEAKER_01:

Curiosity? Eagerness, curiosity, I would tell you tempted to say no because they are rarely present, if at all. Okay. What

SPEAKER_02:

about competition or competitiveness? No. Okay. Sadness? No, no sadness. Okay. Overwhelmed? That's a good one. On occasion. Okay, we'll put it in. Are there any positive-ish feelings? I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. Sometimes there is. And I mean, Singapore's work culture, I think, is similar to us in North America, where like something could be terribly distressing, but a sense of competition is evaluated as a positive thing. Not in agriculture, but so I just wondered if a competitive drive was like a positive thing.

SPEAKER_01:

No, for me specifically, there's rarely a positive response.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so, all right. Now we're going to go through each feeling and I want you to think about this moment where you're reviewing a particular document and I want you to rate the feelings on a scale of one to 10. And 10 means that you're experiencing that feeling the most intensely and one is not intense at all. It's kind of in the background. So you're reviewing a document in the midst of the work task. What is your level of self-doubt? I'd say it's a seven. Okay. What about uncertainty? A seven. Inadequacy? Eight. Okay. Self-conscious? Eight.

SPEAKER_01:

Fear? Fear would probably be a two or three. Let's just go with a three.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And critical?

SPEAKER_02:

Eight. Oops, oops, oops, oops. I did a bad thing. Okay. Critical? Eight. Judgmental? Eight. Anxiety? I'd say this would be a four. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And worry? Worry would be an eight.

SPEAKER_02:

And stress? Stress would be a four. Okay. And overwhelm? Overwhelm would be a two. Okay. So... You've rated a lot of these pretty high. I'm curious to know if it impacts what you do, your physical behavior during the task. So for example, do you avoid, do you take breaks, do you shuffle papers around? Do you take a cigarette break? I don't know. Or do you spend much longer on it? Do you go on social media? What is your behavior?

SPEAKER_01:

Great question. So a lot of my behavior is, I generalize it as fidgeting, right? Fidgeting is what you've described some of it. Browsing my phone, going on Reddit, twirling a pen, shuffling papers, doodling, looking for a video on YouTube. It's kind of like anything but wanting to do that particular task. Let's procrastinate as much as possible. Focus is impossible. And then it's a struggle of trying to bring the focus back. Ah, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, now fidgeting and doodling and procrastinating, these all go well together and it makes sense, you know, but when you say YouTube and Reddit, I get concerned because those are what I call rabbit holes. It's hard to get out of them sometimes. So I imagine, uh, Are you, do you end up submitting the documents late or the work late? No. Oh, you end up getting everything done on time.

SPEAKER_01:

I still take immense pressure and pride in myself to hit and meet deadlines. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And so I'm just, I'm thinking behaviorally, what does this look like? Procrastinate in the beginning and then like you power through it in the 11th hour?

SPEAKER_01:

Correct. I power through it eventually.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to say power through it in the final stretch, in the final inning. I don't really play baseball, but okay. So you're reviewing this document and you feel self-doubt, uncertainty, inadequacy, self-consciousness. Tell me why. What are the thoughts that are connected to some of those feelings? What are you thinking about yourself, the world, your workplace? A

SPEAKER_01:

lot of thoughts is, I mean, starting with, am I sufficiently good enough? Am I knowledgeable enough? Well, equipped enough, experienced enough to be doing this task and to be doing this task correctly? Am I doing something that I am way in over my head and i'm just going to screw this up and cause problems for other people down the road

SPEAKER_02:

okay so um the way i'm writing it out um is you're saying you're asking it as a question and i'm just putting it as a statement so i'm not experienced knowledgeable enough to be doing this i'm going to mess this up and cause problems for someone else down the road. And you also said, I'm in over my head.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's kind of like another trigger thought would be, it's only a matter of time people realize I'm not qualified to do any of this.

SPEAKER_02:

It's only a matter of time. And so this is kind of like, You feel like a bit of an imposter, I'm guessing. Imposter syndrome is at full force, yeah. Yes, okay. And what do you think it is that they're going to figure out? That you're not good enough or you're underqualified?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not good enough. I've basically hoodwinked my way through the interview and they've hired this amazing fraudster who doesn't know jacked.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Okay. Now tell me about a bit more about the critical voice. What does a critical voice say to you?

SPEAKER_01:

The critical voice is very critical. It offers a lot of criticisms that are not very constructive sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

And And I'm just thinking like, because you're actually doing the work and some of the thoughts you provided are, they're overarching. They're about you, which is important. But I also wonder if there's a thought about the work itself, like this field, like something like this document is complex or I made a mistake before or, you know, I don't know, is there like a piece where your lack of knowledge is really becoming central for you? Like, are you reading things that you're like, I actually don't know what this means or I think I need more training?

SPEAKER_01:

So my critical voice most of the time views things as, I'd like to say it as trying to control fate. I feel like I am responsible for my actions. I'm responsible for my reactions. I'm responsible for knowing what I'm supposed to do. Therefore, the critical voice approaches everything from that angle where I might be looking at a document and as you put it, it might be too complex for me. It might be a boring subject. It might be very written in Tahiti for all I know. My reaction is I should be better. I should have figured out Tahiti a long time ago. I should find a way to make this document interesting. I should find a way to focus and go through this document perfectly 100% of the time. It's never the fault of the subject or the assignment giver, but it is my fault for not being better.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm responsible for knowing how to do this task, and I should be able to complete it... Without a hiccup or without a...

SPEAKER_01:

Without a hiccup. It needs to be slow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Okay. So here are your automatic thoughts. I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough to be doing this. I'm going to mess this up and cause problems for someone else down the road. I'm in over my head. It's only a matter of time that people will figure out that I'm a fake or not good enough. I'm responsible for knowing how to do this task, and I should be able to complete it without a hiccup. I should be flawless. Now, I want to ask a follow-up question for I'm going to mess this up and cause problems for someone else down the road. So tell me about that. What happens if you do make a mistake and you cause a problem for someone else down the road? What does that end up looking like? What does it mean for them? What does it mean for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Usually it's not catastrophic. Mentally, I see it as catastrophic. It means I've disappointed someone. I've let them down. I've not been able to meet and exceed their expectations. I've essentially forced them to make a mistake in trusting me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I just want to make sure I get the way you said that was very powerful, actually. I have made a mistake. A mistake in allowing them to trust me. Is that how you said it? Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

that works. It's not

SPEAKER_01:

quite how you said it, though, is it? I forced them to make a mistake in trusting me.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. Okay, okay. I have forced them to make a mistake. If I were to rephrase, I have forced them to make a mistake, it's almost like I've duped them or I have, like I've tricked them. Yeah. I've been deceptive, right? I've deceived them in allowing them to trust me. It's an interesting way to think about it. I'm going to go on to this other phrase, I'm in over my head, because it sounds like it's quite similar to I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough. I'm going to say, Sebastian, what if What if you aren't the most experienced? What if you don't have all the knowledge? What does it say about you as a person?

SPEAKER_01:

It means I'm an abject failure and I should work harder. Wow, I'm an

SPEAKER_02:

abject failure and I should work harder. Can you tell me, what does it mean to be, what does the word abject mean?

SPEAKER_01:

complete, horrible, over-the-top, every aspect possible.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. For our viewers, I'm just showing the synonyms. Hopeless, miserable, wretched, dismal. When you say failure and then you add an adjective like that, I just want to emphasize how powerful that is. I should work harder. And, you know, work harder in what sense?

SPEAKER_01:

Work harder in... every sense possible. If I worked harder, I wouldn't be a failure. If I just worked a bit harder, I focused a bit better, I read up a bit more, I wouldn't be in a position where there's a risk of me doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Read, researched, studied, etc. So if I worked a bit harder, read, researched, studied, I would be a success?

SPEAKER_01:

I would be an acceptable level. Success seems like a very strong word.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I would be more acceptable. Yes. And when you say more acceptable, is it as an employee or as a person?

SPEAKER_01:

As a person.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. it's only a matter of time that people will figure out that I'm a fake or not good enough. That was one of your automatic thoughts. And if they find that out, what's the consequence to your relationships or for your career trajectory?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd get fired. My career would have an abrupt stop. I will never find another job ever again because now everyone will know how bad I truly am. Right. People will leave me. I will be all alone. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm really, I'm appreciating that you're talking about not just the career trajectory, but a lot. This is almost the first time I'm hearing something about the loss of a relationship. So people will leave me. I'll be all alone. Yes. Okay. All right. So I'm going to leave it there. That is like, you know, pretty good. Pretty good as in it's a pretty good list, right? You've run out of space. I've run out of space. But you know what? In fairness, lots of people go on to the second page when it comes to automatic thoughts. So Sebastian, I'd like you to look at this list of automatic thoughts and help me identify one that you think is the most salient, meaning the most prominent, that's driving a lot of the difficult feelings in this particular situation. So what is the biggest, most prominent thought that you, like negative thought that you're having in this context?

SPEAKER_01:

Hmm. It's like trying to pick a favorite child.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, here, I'll tell you that sometimes, not always, but sometimes the thoughts that have the arrows beneath them, they're a bit more distilled, meaning they're a bit more, they might be a bit more closer to home or closer to the core issue than the immediate thought.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say the first one. Let's go with, I am not experienced, knowledgeable enough to be doing this and I've been over my head. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And before I pick that one, I just want to make sure it's not one of the ones below it that is really central like that. Because we're going from thought to belief when you say, I'm an abject failure and I should work harder. Like that could also be, I wonder if that's central in how you see yourself in this situation. Yes. Yes, that would be. Okay. It's a central belief. That is a central belief. Okay. So which one do you want to pick? I'm not experienced knowledgeable enough to be doing this and I'm in over my head. Or do you want to pick I'm an abject failure and I should work harder?

SPEAKER_01:

Let's go with that one, the abject failure one.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I'm just going to bold it. This is what we call your hot thought. It's a hot thought because it is the one that we're going to evaluate. And it's the one we've decided is the most central, salient, prominent in this situation where you're reviewing a document and you experience all of these feelings, self-doubt, uncertainty, inadequacy, et cetera. Now we have to evaluate this thought. So Can you give me some evidence that supports this idea that you are an abject failure and you should work harder?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, boy. I could be much further along in my career. I could be. It sounds very shallow. Forgive me. No, that's okay. I could be earning more money.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm not as far along in my career as I'd like to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And I could be earning more money.

SPEAKER_03:

Who are

SPEAKER_02:

you comparing yourself to in that moment?

SPEAKER_01:

So there is always someone who would be making more money in a more senior position. It's always an upward comparison, no matter how high I go. There will always be someone for me to say, hey, this person is younger and richer. I should be comparing myself to him, her.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, okay. So I'm not as far along in my career as I'd like to be. I could be making more money. What's other evidence that suggests your failure or that you should be

SPEAKER_01:

working harder? My relationships, my partners. My partners are not 100% happy all the time. By partners, you mean your people at work or your romantic partners? I'd say I'll lump it all together. my friends, my romantic partners, my work colleagues. So people in my life are not always happy with

SPEAKER_02:

me?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they're not 100% happy, 100% satisfied. Even if I might not be the one that caused it, I could have been the one to help stop that from happening.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, okay. So when people in your life are not happy with you, it's You think that it's due to a shortcoming of you. Yes. Okay, so people in my life, I'm going to rephrase it then. They experience difficult things, and I'm not able to stop it or prevent it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that's very much better put. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, I'm just thinking here in the context of work, what kind of experience or knowledge could you have that you don't currently? Do you need another certification? Do you need more on-the-job training? What do you not have that other people do have? Because it's okay to acknowledge what we don't have, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like I lack everything, basically. I lack of experience. I lack of intuition. I lack finesse, timeliness, discipline.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay,

SPEAKER_02:

I don't trust my intuition. And you're saying I'm not great at... at organization and timeliness. Yes. Okay. Is there anything else you want to say or you want me to list as evidence that supports this idea that you're an abject failure and should work harder?

SPEAKER_01:

So the evidence would be, I don't know if this counts as evidence. Correct me if I'm wrong. It all just feels like all these things are faults that I could control, are faults that I could have fixed on my own end if I put in more effort into it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I'm thinking about the part where you say you should work harder. Do you see people around you working harder than you? I

SPEAKER_01:

feel like it's because I'm behind. I'm lagging behind. I should put in an extra effort into it. In

SPEAKER_02:

terms of what? You're lagging behind in terms of what?

SPEAKER_01:

Because I believe you, I just

SPEAKER_02:

want to know what it is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah? I appreciate these questions. I think this is asking me to kind of dig a bit deeper instead of just touching in on surface level. So like let's say in Korea, I think they are better than me because they've had more time on the job or they've come from a better, more relevant background. or they are just more in tuned with what the project needs. And I could be that level if I put in the time and effort.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm lagging behind my peers. They're often more attuned to what the project needs. Now that's like, okay, that makes sense to me. Now I'm getting a sense of, why you think you're failing and you should work harder and getting this image of like, you know, being on a hamster wheel where you just feel like you're chronically behind everybody else. Yes. All the time. Okay. Now we need evidence that does not support the hot thought. So this might be tough for you. This is evidence that you're not a failure. In fact, you're doing well or you're a success or even that you're not a failure and you're getting by, right? You could also say, these are situations where I've done the bare minimum and it's been okay. I'm not asking you to swing the pendulum and, you know, say you're a wild success, but at least evidence that suggests you're not an abject failure, right? Right. And some evidence, because this is a two-parter, some evidence that speaks to the effort you do put in, right? Because there's something about working hard here. So, Help me out. What is some evidence to suggest that you're not a failure or that you do work hard?

SPEAKER_01:

So this is going to come across strange. I can give you evidence that does not support the hot thought. That to me doesn't feel hard. The challenging part to me is believing any of these evidences. Okay, no problem. So give me the evidence and then we'll see where to go from there. Let's start with the basics. I've not been fired ever. Yeah. I've not been fired. I've not been written up. Every job that I've tried to leave, I've been counter-offered. They've tried to retain me. Wow. Bosses have, well, sung praises. It sounds horrible, but they've given very positive reinforcement, very positive feedback on what I've been doing. I'd say if I want to think back on it, I've progressed in my career quite a bit faster than people, than my peers, or at least people that I've grew up with. I've never found it very challenging to find a new job, even though I am, quote unquote, a serial job hopper.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Easy time finding new work. So tell me about something that does not support the idea that you should work harder. Like something that says, I work hard enough now, or I worked hard enough on, I remember working hard on something and it paid off.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say almost all the projects that I've been assigned or having to do or have taken on turns out at least 70% to 80%, right? OK. So things I work

SPEAKER_02:

on. That's a pretty good number,

SPEAKER_01:

I'm guessing. Conventionally, it is a good number. But not for you, of course. It's not 110.

SPEAKER_02:

OK. Tell me about this kind of perfectionism and negative self-talk. Separate from this chart, where does it come from?

SPEAKER_01:

It comes... Well, it probably doesn't come from there, but I think one core belief that ties all of it together is me feeling that perfection is the baseline. Anything that doesn't meet perfection... is a failure because it doesn't meet the baseline. Therefore, it is an impossible standard.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And where does this impossible standard come from? Is it your family? Is it the culture of Singapore? Is it your partner? Is it siblings? Is it the culture of your workplace? Where does that come from?

SPEAKER_01:

I think, or I have a suspicion that it might be childhood mixed together with cultural upbringing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Can you pinpoint times in your childhood? And I'm thinking, honestly, you don't have to dig super deep, but memories you have or images you have of times where you were told something wasn't good enough or a time when you were proud of something and somebody else got praised for doing it slightly better.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Where do we start? So I think your Asian listeners would identify with the meme of you've only scored an A minus. What acceptable standards these are? So I think that's quite commonplace with me growing up where hitting 90 out of 100 in an exam will come with a question of you were so close to getting 100. It's not a bloody hell, you got 90. No, it's you're so close to getting 100. He's got a band five out of a six band evaluation. Why couldn't you just hit that couple more points to be a perfect score? Yes, yes. A lot of it is from that, I suppose. And I think my childhood as I grew up, I was forced to grow up very quickly. My parents were working. I think when I was in my early teens or even when I was 11, 12, 13 years, I was expected to raise my two younger kids because my parents were too busy. Your two younger siblings? Yeah, so I was the

SPEAKER_02:

one. It's interesting, Sebastian. Yes, because it's very interesting. Right now you call them my two younger kids as opposed to my two younger siblings. Oh, dear. I shouldn't have used siblings. No, no, it's not about what you should have done. We're getting some insight into a childhood where you didn't have the option of making mistakes because you were in this role model figure.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's tough. Then you'll pair that with an abusive parent, if you will, an Asian abusive parent. paternal figure who believes in physical abuse to reinforce discipline. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And are you saying here, I imagine, you know, physical abuse leaves an imprint on a lot of people's lives. Do you think you fear punishment in a similar way now as an adult?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say perhaps. I can't say with certainty. I fear punishment as an adult, but I am a lot more cautious. I am a lot more guarded in my approach when it comes to things. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And just maybe one or two more questions on this. Do you, is your father still in your life?

SPEAKER_01:

No,

SPEAKER_02:

I've cut him off. Okay. Did you find yourself Or do you find yourself thinking about his approval even now? Like, no. Okay, so you're not thinking about would dad be proud of me? Would this be enough for him? No. Okay. I'm going to come back to this thought record for a moment. You've given me a lot of context that's really rich. I just want to check in with you for a moment, though. How are you feeling? having gone to some of the deeper stuff? I feel great, actually. I'm loving this process. Okay. So look, your automatic thought, the hot thought that we selected was, I'm an abject failure and I should work harder. Based on the things that are in these evidence columns and some of the things we've talked about, let's try to come up with a few alternative thoughts. Alternative to the one that's bolded. Okay. And let's see what we come up with. So I'm going to start us off. So an example of one would be I wasn't given an opportunity to make mistakes as a child. And I need to allow that for myself as an adult. So that's a potential alternative thought, right? So you're reviewing the document. You think I'm a failure. I should work harder. You say to yourself, well, I wasn't given the opportunity to make mistakes. I should allow that for myself as an adult. What would be another kind of alternative thought?

SPEAKER_01:

Perfection is a fallacy. Yes. Tell me why. Perfection is a fallacy because it's an impossible standard. It can never be achieved.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. And in your workplace, you're not meant to get it perfect. That's why you work on a team, no? Yeah. Yeah. I work on a team. Because I'm not meant to get everything right on my own.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. Give me one more. Shifting goalposts is a very dangerous habit to get into. What does that mean? Constantly changing the goals which I need to achieve in order to be satisfied.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so when you talk about changing goals, you're saying the alternative thought here is like I'm putting too much pressure on myself or I'm setting the bar so high that I can't begin?

SPEAKER_01:

Setting the bar too high is accurate. It's setting the bar high and constantly moving the bar when I'm approaching it.

SPEAKER_02:

and moving it as I approach. So that's a useful metaphor. So I'm setting the bar high and moving it as I approach. What do you need to do alternatively?

SPEAKER_01:

Set realistic standards and make it acceptable to achieve them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So I'm thinking I'm setting the bar high and moving it as I approach. I should allow myself to experience achievement, content, achievement, content, resolve. Maybe resolve is not the right word. But does this fit for you as an alternative thought? I'm setting the bar. Yeah, it does. Okay. I should allow myself to experience achievement, content, and I don't know what the other word is, but like something, allowing something to feel done. Sense of

SPEAKER_01:

accomplishment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Maybe one more. Sensor space on the page.

SPEAKER_01:

Alternative thought is?

SPEAKER_02:

Here, I want it to be about the working harder part. Because it's clear you're not a failure from the evidence. But this thing about I should work harder. I wonder if there's a thought around that. Alternative thought around that.

SPEAKER_01:

It's perfectly acceptable to take breaks. That life isn't always... Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Acceptable to take breaks. The other thing I want to mention is your process. You do a lot of avoiding and then you get things done. So I think one thought here is that I should separate an unhelpful process from a negative evaluation about the outcome, right? Like if you want to use a productivity tool or somebody might say, you know, I have ADHD, for example, and I'd say, oh yeah, you're going to do a lot of avoiding and do things at the last minute. You might say, I have trouble with the process and I want to work on that, but I don't need to question the outcome or my self-worth because those are good. Does that make sense? It does. I'm going to say I could work on my process, but I don't need to question my output or self-worth. I'm just going to do a little So of these alternative thoughts, so you're thinking about the situation where you're reviewing a document, you feel self-doubt, uncertainty, inadequacy, self-conscious, fear, criticalness, judgment, a sense of being judgmental, anxiety, worry, stress, overwhelmed. And here are your alternative thoughts. I wasn't given an opportunity to make mistakes as a child, and I need to allow for that. Allow that for myself as an adult. Perfection is a fallacy. It's an impossible standard. I work on a team because I'm not meant to get everything right or done on my own. I'm setting the bar high and moving it as I approach. I should allow myself to experience achievement, content, accomplishment. It's acceptable to take breaks. I could work on my process, but I don't need to question my outputs or software. Which of those do you like best? Which of those resonates with you the most? Or which alternative thought do you believe the most?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say the first one, the childhood one.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So this one really stands out to you. I wasn't given an opportunity to make mistakes as a child. And I need to allow that for myself as an adult. While you're doing this document, you're reviewing and you're doing this, what sound like, they actually sound like not mundane tasks, but very routine tasks, right? If you were to pick a second alternative thought as well from this list, what would it be? One

SPEAKER_01:

is about childhood. If I have to pick a second one, it would be, It is acceptable to take breaks.

SPEAKER_02:

Good. Yeah. Okay. So as you kind of meditate and think about those two, let's re-rate some of your feelings. So if you say, I should be allowed to make mistakes and also it's okay for me to take breaks. Mistakes and breaks are okay. Where's your self-doubt?

SPEAKER_03:

Goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

It could be the same. It could be lower. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

I would put it still the same. Okay. Ditto for uncertainty. Okay. Maybe a tick lower for inadequacy. Let's make inadequacy a seven. A self-conscious a seven. Okay. Fear would be a two. Okay. Critical? Critical will still be an eight. Judgmental will probably be a seven. Okay. Anxiety? Anxiety would be a three. Worry would be a seven. Stress would be a three. Overwhelm would be a one. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Do any new feelings come up for you? I

SPEAKER_01:

think it's good to kind of see all of this information presented in this particular manner in front versus having a lot of these thoughts all trapped up in my head.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I'm going to ask you about new feelings, though. Do you have any self-compassion that shows up?

SPEAKER_01:

It is there, but I'd probably be the one or two for now.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Optimism? Optimism isn't there, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02:

No. What about security or stability? Because you're kind of saying, like, I can make mistakes, I can take breaks, but there's not this fear of losing your job. So I'm just thinking stability is the word that comes to my mind. Like, I have this group to play.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good one. I'd say a tree. A tree for security is stability.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Any other new feelings? So no optimism. No optimism. What about self-confidence? Like you know you're going to get the thing done and you're not going to get fired. Is there some self-confidence that shows up?

SPEAKER_01:

No, there isn't.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay,

SPEAKER_01:

okay. It's still unfortunately very negative leaning.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's okay. Do you feel

SPEAKER_01:

accomplished? No, because it could always be more. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I'm wondering if you feel celebrated, revered, accepted. appreciated any of those?

SPEAKER_01:

Those are big words. No. None of them. Not even

SPEAKER_02:

appreciated. No. How about do you feel actually, you know what? I'm not going to force it. There aren't that many more new feelings and that's okay. I do wonder, you know, one thing that I would say, like if we were to add, you know, to the alternative thoughts, I think one thing I would say is I have positive beliefs about criticism that don't necessarily serve me. We're going to talk about this

SPEAKER_03:

for a minute.

SPEAKER_02:

Does this mean anything to you? I have positive beliefs about... I'm just going to put it down here so it looks like it's closer to the alternative thoughts. I have positive beliefs about self-criticism that don't necessarily serve me. What does that mean to you? I

SPEAKER_01:

have positive beliefs about self-criticism that don't necessarily serve me. I'll need your help on that.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I think... You've come to believe that if you criticize yourself and you're committed to self-criticism in like a relentless, stubborn kind of way, it's the only way that you will get ahead. I think you've come to believe that self-criticism is what you need to get motivated. Because your parents said, You've got a 90, why not a hundred? Right? And so I think what comes from that is a belief that if I focus on what I'm not doing, I won't become complacent. Does that make sense? That sounds very accurate. And so I think that doesn't serve you anymore because if I were to take that a step further, I would say, Even when I'm not perfect, I'm not lazy or complacent. And I think what you haven't had an opportunity to try is to develop some positive beliefs about self-compassion. So when we talked about your alternative thoughts, it's interesting, you picked two that are driven by self-compassion. Like I wasn't given an opportunity to make mistakes as a child and I need to allow myself that now. And it's acceptable to take breaks. Both of those are driven by self-compassion. But if you put self-criticism, and self-compassion next to each other. You don't have any positive beliefs about self-compassion, so you're not gonna invest in it. So I would say that you like those alternative thoughts, but you don't believe in them. Because it would take time for you to say, if I'm kinder to myself, not only will the outputs be good, but so I will enjoy the process a bit more. You haven't had time to test out that theory. So that would be the homework I give you. Test out your beliefs around self-compassion. Because right now you probably have negative beliefs about self-compassion, right? If I go easy on myself or I'm too easygoing, I'll slip. I won't meet my goals, blah, blah, blah. So now I'm wanting you to say, If I actually take breaks and I honor my process, can I have a good outcome? Let's see. So we slowly have to build up your positive beliefs for self-compassion and start to challenge your positive beliefs around self-criticism. I threw a lot at you. What

SPEAKER_01:

do you think? I think it sounds good. Perfectly valid. I think it's amazing. You've managed to capture that just from talking. And yeah, I like the homework. The homework sounds like a step in a positive direction.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, great. So look, I'm going to put your homework. I'm going to write your homework down so you can remember it. And when our viewers get to look at the start record, they'll see it here too. homework. Challenge positive beliefs about criticism and test out what it's like to rely on compassion, self-compassion, that is. All right, Sebastian, as we wrap up, I'd love to know, do you have any final reflections or things that you want to share or you'd like to say before we end today?

SPEAKER_01:

I have quite enjoyed this process, the way you've led through it. It's very fascinating. There are quite a bit of insights to it. And I like how you've tied it all very nicely with a step forward on how to proceed.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you sound like somebody who enjoys and benefits from somewhat of a linear process. And my sense is that in your work, it doesn't always look as linear as you would like. Yes, it's not chaotic. Okay. Well, Sebastian, thank you so much for being a guest on the CBT dive. It's been a pleasure to have you and to go through some of this with you. And I think, I hope that if there's listeners either from, you know, anywhere in the world, but particularly in Singapore, if they are, if this kind of, This ethos around perfection and hard work resonates with them. Hopefully it'll be helpful. So I'm very thankful for your time and contribution. And maybe I'll see you again. Take care. Thank you. Thank you

SPEAKER_01:

so much for having me on the show. Take care. You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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