The CBT Dive

E19 Questioning my lived experience as a valid credential

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 19

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When community organizations create roles for people with lived experience, how does this get experienced on the employee side? In this episode, we talk to a harm reduction activist, drug user, and community worker committed to gay men's health. He explores the imposter syndrome and feelings of self-doubt when working next to academics and other credentialed folks. 
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Raheem Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to diminish mystify what therapy can look like, and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, Jordan. Nice to see you today. How are you? I'm doing well, Rahim. How are you? I am well. Welcome to the CBT dive. Before I introduce you, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what drew you to participate in this video podcast. Other than the fact that I respect and like you and was flattered with the invitation, I've been doing a lot of CBT work in my own personal therapy and I put on breaks for a while, and so I kind of wanted to get back into it. And I thought this was a really good opportunity to get back better acquainted with the tool that I used to use more frequently than I do now. So. Oh, OK, great. And you know what? In all honesty, I do love having somebody who has some experience with CBT just because you're going to have a sense of the purpose of the questions I'm asking and the tools we're using, and that will just facilitate the process a bit better. So thank you for saying you respect me. I really respect you. And I'm going to let our guests know a little bit about you. So I have met Jordan through some work in the gay men's health sector in Ontario, in Canada. They are a Leo. I'm a Leo rising. And I'm a Leo rising. So we're like very similar girls. They were raised as an only child. They do a lot of activism and advocacy for queer guys, drug users, particularly in Toronto. They love cycling and they love cats, which are lovely pastimes, and they enjoy antiquing. And as a fellow Torontonian, I have to say, we don't have a ton of places to do that, but between Jordan and I, we probably have bought up a lot of the Toronto antique stores. Jordan, would you like to add anything else about yourself that you think, like that you'd just like to share? Gosh. No, I mean, cats and cycling really hits it on the head. That's basically me. That's my whole life. That's my whole life. I collect disco records. There you go. That's a thing that I do. And that's my passion. I'm very passionate about music, so. Okay, that is cool. And are you collecting vinyl? Are you a vinyl person? All vinyl, though I do have a huge CD collection. I collect vinyl primarily. Okay. I have to tell you, I'm very confused about this movement around vinyl because it feels cumbersome to me, so I don't quite get it. But maybe you can tell me about it another time. Sounds good. Okay. All right, Jordan, I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. And what I've got up here is a thought record, which you might have seen something like this in the CBT work that you've done. Although I've met people who've done CBT therapy and have not necessarily used thought records. Have you? I've used them. And then for a while, I was kind of doing my own version of it where I shortened it and condensed it and like made it easier to do. Not as effective, but I've used them before. Okay, great. And I do think they are tough to do on your own, to be honest. The situation you and I had identified was you were having a discussion about a workshop you gave with a colleague. And that workshop went well. And the two of you were kind of debriefing it. And there was another person present. And the topic of your presentation or workshop was on chem sex. So for people who are watching who don't know, that is about sexualized drug use, particularly in queer men's communities. And you talk about this experience of suddenly feeling competitive with them. Is there anything else you want to add to the situation in terms of context, or does that feel good? I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. I think it's worth noting that the other person in the room was my boss, just because that adds some nuance to it. Ah, okay. Okay. Yeah, that does. And so the other person who was kind of listening in was your boss. Is that right? Right. Yeah, I will definitely edit that. Okay. And so when we talk about... the feelings or you think about the feelings that came up in the moment, the first thing that you've already said is you felt competitive. What else did you feel in that moment? Let me think back to that. The first thing I would say I felt was, was small, minimal, minimized, almost like inconsequential. Came up with the competitive a lot. Yeah. Jealous. Jealous. I know I felt shame. I feel shame with most things. Shame comes up. There's a sense of like feeling unfair or there's a sense of injustice almost, like something wasn't fair. I don't know if there's... Yeah, I would say injustice is a feeling. within justice can often come like frustration or anger would you say you felt angry yeah i felt angry okay and when someone feels jealous um i also like i sometimes wonder if other feelings are are piggybacked onto that um and like would jealousy maybe a sense of admiration for the other person? Or is that a stretch? No, I don't think that's a stretch at all. I have a lot of admiration for this person in most of my work. Yeah. Okay. So the other side of the coin for jealousy is admiration, you know? And I think that's important to keep in mind. And jealousy actually often comes up in situations of three. And that's because we often feel like we're losing something. And in this instance, I'm guessing the way your colleague was talking about their work made your, maybe caught the attention of your boss more. Was that something that was happening for you where you thought like that this thing went well was being attributed to your colleague more than yourself? Oh yeah, that was definitely what was happening. I thought for sure that their contributions were being sort of looked at with a more favorable light than mine and that mine were being looked at as being inconsequential or not even part of the narrative. So yeah, definitely thinking that I was being written out of the story almost. Okay. And I'm guessing there's a bit of sadness that you feel in that moment too. Yeah, there's a little bit of sadness and grief around that, I would say. Okay. Grief is strong, but I'll put it down because later we can rate the intensity of these feelings and you're welcome to give it a lower intensity rating. Here are some other feelings. I wonder if you were feeling, were you feeling discouraged? Yes. Okay. What about curious? No. No? You did do well. And I wondered if you were feeling celebratory at all or joyful. You know, you raise an interesting point. I think that feeling was there, but it was like just very sublimated. It's like I wanted to feel celebratory about what we had done. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, before we go further, let's go back to this situation because you and your colleague are reflecting on the workshop together. From your perspective, did you think that you both did a good job? Did you think that your colleague in that moment was exaggerating how much they did?

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

So the thing that was tricky about this particular presentation was that I was not actually there for it. I recorded my contribution to the presentation. I wasn't able to physically be present. And all the feedback that I got on it, which was very positive, came like virtually third-hand to me, right? Through my colleague and through some emails that I got. So, yeah, it's a bit tricky. Yeah, I thought it went well for both of us, but I don't know for sure, right? I don't know how much they loved it. his presentation, how much they love mine. There's always a bit of doubt when somebody is reporting back to me on how it went. If somebody is telling me my section went well, I'm like, well, they're just being nice. They're just giving me a compliment. So there was a bit of like the unknown. Okay. And when they, so they were present and I'm guessing they were delivering it virtually as well. Yeah. Okay. I mean, those are the times we're living in. Right. And so would they have been, would they have been watching your recorded portion at the same time that it was being delivered to the larger audience? Yes. Okay. So they would have an opportunity to say something about how the audience found your work and their work. Did they talk about both pieces or were they just talking about how the audience responded to them? They were talking about both pieces. And in fact, they did go out of their way to like highlight the fact that they really responded to the content I was delivering and that it was delivered fairly effectively. Because we got a lot of feedback on evaluations around my section. People liked the idea that was being discussed and the way it was brought up. Okay. So colleagues stated that we both received good feedback, which included in... Included my pre-recorded session. Okay. And did your boss say anything in that moment? Honestly, I can't remember if he did or didn't. I think he was happy. I remember him being happy, but that's about it. I don't remember anything. Okay. All right. So here is your feelings list. Competitive, minimized, inconsequential, jealous, shame or ashamed. Injustice, angry, admiration, sadness, grief, discouraged, celebratory, doubt, or doubtful. Let's rate each of these on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most intense that you were feeling it in that situation, and one being not very intense at all. So competitive? Let's go with a six or a six, yeah, a six. Okay. Oops, I don't know what I just did. Give me a sec here. Undo, undo. Thank gosh for the undo features. Okay, so six, there we go. Minimized. I would say that's an eight. Okay, inconsequential. Can I also read that one in eight? Yeah, of course. And jealous? Seven. Fame? I would say about a four or five. Let's go with a four. Okay. Injustice? Sick. Angry? Five. It's okay. And these are a lot of feelings, right? And you're taking yourself back to a particular moment. So I can appreciate that. It's not always easy to do these mood ratings. What would you say the admiration was? I would say it's about a three or a four. That's okay. Okay. How about sadness? I would say about a five. And grief? Two. Oops. Discouraged? About a six. Okay. And celebratory? I would also say about a six. Okay. And the last one is doubtful. I would say about an eight. Okay, and this doubtful, to be clear, this is like a kind of disbelief where you're questioning whether what this person's saying that's positive about you is actually true, right? Yeah. I want to go to the feeling of shame for a moment only because, you know, I like to talk about shame. I know you like to talk about shame, but I think, yeah, but it means different things to different people. And so in this instance, I'm wondering if this shame is more like a sense of inferiority or more a sense of embarrassment. Good question. My gut says inferiority. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm just going to put shame slash inferiority. Because I think we both know that shame can show up in big ways and small ways. So I just wanted to clarify. While you and your colleague were having this conversation, tell me about your behavior. What did you do during the conversation? Did you get silent? Did you participate? What were you doing? I did a couple of things. So number one, I did get silent. I go quiet in moments like that where I feel very like overwhelmed. Yeah. When I did speak, I actually participated in, in sort of denigrating my contribution, like downplaying it and not like, I almost became like, I almost did the thing that I was thinking my colleague was doing, but I was really downplaying my contributions and sort of, minimizing my role in the entire presentation and giving them more credit perhaps than they were due. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I've got here, became silent, downplayed my own contribution, gave more credit to my colleagues than was due. After this conversation, was there anything you did? Like go for a walk?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

consume alcohol? I don't know. Anything that was like soothing at all? Go for a while. That sounds like a really healthy coping strategy. I should try it sometime. Okay. No, I was at work. So probably not. I don't recall directly. Like, yeah. Okay. At my desk for a little while and then continue with my day. Yeah. All right. So our next column is about automatic thoughts. And these are the thoughts that come up in your mind. during the difficult situation or during this situation where you have a mixture of difficult emotions, right? Sometimes identifying the thoughts right away are a bit tricky. So I think about them as automatic negative thoughts, but I also think about them as somewhat subconscious thoughts. So for example, when you were feeling competitive, what might you have been thinking? I wish I was, or I'm not as good as, or I should work harder at what were you thinking? Okay. Give me a moment with that one, just so I can like reflect on that moment. Yeah. Definitely. There was a feeling of like, I'm not as good as, and as competent as this individual and everybody can see that. That was part of that thought. Okay. And everyone can see that, okay? And when I think competitive, I'm thinking there may be a thought, like some kind of self-talk about you saying more or you... describing more about what your contribution was. Did you, was that going on for you in the back of your mind? Like where you had a voice that was saying, Jordan, say more, say more. It's a good question. I'm sure that is something that does come up for me in situations like this quite often. I'm not as aware of it though, because I'm very aware of the voice. It's like, don't say anything, don't say anything. But there is a part of me that always wants to like, you know, speak up, like make a space for yourself. Don't let them get more credit than they deserve, which is... I'm not going to judge that thought. You're judging that thought. Okay, so I'm going to write here the thought I'm coming up with. And you can tell me if it fits or you're not. But I think it's a should. It's a, I should speak up about my contribution. And... I shouldn't praise myself too much. Would you say that's the tension? Like there's these two thoughts happening together. I should speak up about my contribution and I shouldn't praise myself too much. Yep, that would be the tension. Okay, okay. And... If your work is inconsequential, like you use inconsequential as a feeling, right? So if you're feeling inconsequential or inferior, what are you thinking there? So you already told me that you're not as competent as your colleague and everyone can see that. But were you also second guessing? To me, that's about how your colleague is talking about the work they did. not about the, you know, side by side, your recorded presentation versus his live lecture, you know, were you retrospectively kind of doubting the quality of your work? Were you thinking I should have said more or I should have been there live? Was there that kind of thinking? Definitely there was, I should have been there live. And if I organized my life better, I could have been there live because I would have no way of like ascertaining and seeing people's reaction to what I did. And then, you know, because I'd seen the presentation after the fact, there's that second guessing that comes from like finding every fault that I could with that content. Yeah. What else came up for me around that? Well, I don't value them the same. I think an in-person presentation is more valuable than what I did. I see.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

in-person presentation is more valuable. Okay. And why is that? Because in my mind, it takes more skill to be in the moment of presenting live and facilitating learning live than it is to pre-record something where you can just record it and record it and record it until it's perfect. And there's not engagement with your audience in that case, right? It's basically a lecture versus an engaging sort of learning opportunity or discussion. Okay. Okay. I'm going to come back to these. These are jam-packed with goodness, I will say, or richness. Tell me a bit about the doubtfulness, where you're feeling doubtful about the positive comments and feedback from the audience. You're doubtful because... Or if the audience said good things about what you contributed, you doubt it, because why? That's a really good question. And I don't think about that one too often. I just doubt because I doubt. I have a distrust when people say nice things about the work that I do because I feel that they're just trying to be fair or nice or polite. I take it more as people are being polite when they're being nice and they're being truthful when they're being critical. So I don't put as much value on compliments. Okay. So I don't trust compliments because I assume people are being... polite but you also said something about criticisms i might have missed it what was that last part you said i take criticism as the honest truth that people when they're critical of you they're telling you the actual truth about what they think oh okay okay so you take criticism as honesty but in your mind there isn't really room for positive feedback as honesty yeah Okay, okay. Here are the automatic thoughts we've got so far. I'm not as competent as my colleague and everyone can see that. I should speak up about my contribution and I shouldn't praise myself too much. If I organized my life better, I could have been present live and heard the comments firsthand. An in-person presentation is more valuable than what I did because it takes more skill to present in real time. And the last automatic thought you have is, I don't trust compliments because I assume people are being polite. I take criticism as honesty. So let's go back to some of these. Where you say, I'm not as competent as my colleague, and everyone can see that. In what way are you less skilled than your colleague, do you think? Okay. I'll be honest with you. What was he good at? Yeah. So my colleague is not a drug user. So they work in the same field that I do, but they're not a drug user and I am. So I tend to have a higher regard for people who are doing that work from a place of sobriety or whatever you want to call it than I do. My work is informed by lived experience. I don't have any academic background in the work that I'm doing. And also, if I'm hearing this right, Jordan, sorry, you feel like, I just want to clarify, you're saying here that you would be less competent than somebody who has an academic background because lived experience isn't worth as much or is not valued as much? Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. I know it would intellectually be wrong or not perhaps the most correct way of thinking, but I still feel and think that way. It's a very deeply held belief that my drug use really isn't credible. It isn't worth much. Okay. I'm just going to write this down. So my lived experience isn't as valuable as the colleague who doesn't have lived experience of drug use. Now, tell me a bit more. Who has told you that? Or why do you think that? I'm not going to disagree with it. I'm just trying to figure out where it came from. Because maybe he does know something that you don't know. I'm just trying to figure out what that thing is. Yeah. I mean, I don't really think there is something he doesn't know that I don't know. But I guess that's one. Knowing that and embodying that are two different things. Where does that come from for me? I guess it's because through most of my, I don't know how far I want to go into this, but that thought has been present with me for a long time. Back when we used to be in sobriety and in 12-step sort of recovery, a thing that I sort of got the idea of was that my drug use tainted everything that I did. It was a lot upon like every good that I did in the world was diminished by that use. And so I've sort of gotten to this place where I believe that lived experience isn't really, for me, lived experience isn't valuable. I also over academics because I grew up in a household where academic accomplishment was the only way I got validation. And it was the only sort of, yeah. Okay. So we've got a couple of thoughts here that clearly are not like, necessarily conscious thoughts but they're they're flowing under the river they're very much like the undercurrent here right um so i'm just going to type this out one thing that you're saying is everything that i do okay sorry my lived experience isn't as valuable as the colleague who doesn't have lived experience of drug use academic knowledge is more valuable and usually gets more validation and that is your experience um and everything you said this thing that you know you've thought for a while everything that i do is tainted by my drug use in some way how in what way wow i don't know if i can break down exactly what i think it's okay but i just feel it's more like a it's tainted by it and i don't really want to like break it down because I know that it doesn't have a lot of legs to stand on. Okay, okay, no problem. How about we try this? Jordan, what if someone else's academic knowledge is more celebrated than the knowledge that you bring? What if that's true? What's the long-term consequence of that? What does that mean for you professionally or personally? Um... Okay. I want to make sure I understand the question just so I'm clear. So if that's true, like this person's academic knowledge is more valued than what I'm bringing to the table, what does that mean in the background for me and my life? What does it say? Yeah. What is the consequence of that for you personally or professionally? I mean, personally, I really don't know if I can, Figure out what that would mean for me personally. Professionally, it might mean like a lack of opportunity or like not being able to access or do the work that I want to do. Okay. Right? So it's kind of like I'll never experience like upward mobility in my work life or in my career? Right. Those folks who have the academic experience and background will get ahead. I won't. that i'll just sort of be sitting here the token kind of guy who uses drugs and only contributing up to a certain extent and that work only being expected up to a certain extent um okay um personally um i think i can't necessarily get to the thought i can get to the feeling i think personally it would mean that i would feel very very I would feel less than I would feel like I'd failed because for me, academics also represents a thing that I've never accomplished in my life. So I've never finished university, et cetera. And so I, we remind me again of like past failure and sort of bring me back to that place of. Yeah. So we were moving from almost a thought to a belief that I'm a failure or not. having academic legitimacy or credentials. Now, I think actually I'm going to read these out to you and just like see how they feel. We started with I'm not as competent as my colleague and everyone can see that. And so then I said, okay, in what way or why is that? And you said, well, your lived experience isn't as valuable as the colleague who is an academic essentially and doesn't have lived experience. And then you said, well, why would that be? Academic knowledge is more valuable and usually gets more validation. So far, these are like, some of these are almost, factual from your perspective. I'm not saying they are facts, but I think from your perspective, you've come to see them as pretty factual. Yeah. And then we get into like another factual thing that you're saying here is like everything that I do is tainted by my drug use in some way. So I think you really came to believe that. And maybe that was true. I don't know. But then the last two bullets we've got here are actually about the consequences of those facts. So if that fact is true, or if this thing is true, then this is what it says about me or my life. So it says that I'm a failure for not having academic legitimacy or credentials, or I'll never experience upward mobility as a person who is the token with lived experience. So these two are kind of, they're really catching my eye at the moment. And we'll come back to those. I wanna go down to this thought you had where you said, if I organize my life better, I could have been present live and heard the comments firsthand. Now, I don't know if you needed to hear the comments firsthand or if you needed to be live, but you've put some value to being able to do something like that live. And you've also said that an in-person presentation is more valuable, right? Because it requires this thinking on the spot skill. Now, tell me a bit about, like, what do you mean by if I organize my life better? Do you struggle with organization? Is that a theme in your life? Yeah, currently it's been a theme for the past couple of years. And in terms of scheduling things, double booking things is quite common for me, you know, like not organizing my day correctly and being late for things is a new thing, but still a common occurrence. And I can't remember what it was about this presentation, but I think I had double booked. I said I could do it. And then it turns out I was busy that day and I couldn't break out of the previous commitment to go be there. Okay. Yeah. Is organizing your work life a struggle or is it also in your personal life? All of my life. Okay. Okay. And is this, like, is this about like a hint of like ADHD that's operating? Is it part of the drug use? Is it a sleep, like issues with sleep? Like what, what do you, what is it connected to, do you think? So I don't know about the ADHD thing. I once was going to investigate that and never followed through. So to me, the belief is that it's due to my drug use. And mostly the issues I have with sleep and cognitive ability and memory and whatnot. Okay. So it's interesting, like the presentation is about drug use and how it operates in particular communities. And it's the very thing that in a way you struggle with. That's like one of the side effects, right? Or the unintended consequences. Now, is there a thought here where you're judging yourself in that moment? So you're saying to yourself, I wish I could have made it in person. I couldn't. Let's say it's because of my drug use. Is there a thought there about you as a drug user? Oh, yes. I mean, there's bad thoughts. What is that thought exactly? Like if I didn't use drugs, blah, blah, blah, or. Use drugs, my life would be better. This wouldn't be happening. And that I would be more competent, more able to do the things that I value doing. Right. There's also a thought around. Sorry, go ahead. So is that, I just want to make sure that is a, that is an actual thought you have. Like if you weren't using drugs, things in your life would be better. Yep, it's an actual thought. Okay, I just want to Okay. I sorry, you were gonna say something else. Did you want to add something to that? Um, gosh, no, I can't remember. I lost my train of thought on that one. It'll come back to me, though. Okay. And when you say things in your life would be better. What are you talking about here? Is it like, Like organizationally, you think you would be just a bit more structured or what? I think I would be better organized. I would be more present. I wouldn't make so many small mistakes like with scheduling with, yeah. Okay. More present, fewer errors, better scheduled. Okay. I hear that. I hear that. Okay. There's also another piece of this very full statement where you're talking about why an in-person presentation is more valuable and that it relies on certain skills. Do you think you don't have those skills or do you feel sad that you missed an opportunity to showcase those skills? So it's mostly the second one, but there's a belief that I'm losing those skills to do to my drug use. And this was an opportunity to showcase them, and now I can't. OK, so I missed an opportunity to showcase my skills. And I'm just going to put a semicolon there because connected to it is this worry that I'm losing my skills due to drug use. Thinking going on in my head. Well, it's a difficult headspace to be in, right? Because you are supporting people and trying to combat and resist stigma that comes with drug use. And it's an isolating place when then you as the non-activist, but the person that's just you in your home, for example, you're thinking, okay, Like, I wish there wasn't so much stigma about drug use. I wish people didn't dehumanize drug users. But also, I do wonder what my life would look like if this had a smaller role in my life, or, you know, it seems like there's not necessarily a space for you to process. Just the like, the impact of drug use, while also being kind to yourself while also doing the work that you do, like the work that you do positions you almost to be in defense of, and then your personal experience positions you to be in this headspace around behavior change. And I imagine that's very challenging. Do you want to speak to that just a little bit? Yeah, no, you're right. It is very challenging and it's a struggle for the past couple of years, especially doing the very public work that I'm doing now, where I'm speaking out about it a lot more. I almost feel like I have to be like present in person as a strong and like capable person who does have control over the drug use. And so the conflict comes when I look at my own life and I say, well, that's not how it actually is. And it doesn't feel like I have a lot of avenues to like talk about that other than when I'm working with my therapist and that's like, twice a month. A lot of time it can be really draining and I can sort of feel like a hypocrite or I think that I'm a hypocrite a lot of the time because of this sort of contrast. I still haven't figured out how to be kind to myself in all of this. I hold myself to a higher standard than I would anybody else. Like there's a different set of rules for me than there are for other folks who are going through the same issue. I believe that. I believe that that is how you operate. Look, what I've written down here as another thought is, and let me know if it's correct. I have to present. I'm going to use the word show up. I think it's a bit more clear. I have to show up as someone who is confident and managing my drug use well, even though sometimes I struggle. All right. Now, If you constantly, like there's this pressure around you have to show up a particular way, what happens if you don't? What's the consequence? Like people are, I think you alluded to this, people will think you're a fraud or you're an imposter or something like that. Impostor is definitely part of it. I think there's a belief that people will see me for who I actually think I am, which is like a hot mess. You know, I'm afraid that people will like see through that and that they'll see that I really don't have it all together. And then they will use it as further evidence that what I'm trying to do is like, like that the stigma is really there for a reason, because really all people who use drugs are just messy, incompetent, lazy, stupid, all those things. Okay. So what I'm writing here is, I just wanna make sure I'm capturing it. If I don't show up as quote unquote put together, people will use it against me and in opposition to my anti-stigma work. Is that right? Did I capture that okay? Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. Okay. Cause when I read it, it feels a bit confusing, but I think I've got it. Yeah. Like if I show up as the stereotype, then people are going to be like, he's a joke. What is he talking about? You know, like why is he advocating for the people who are drug users when he can't even, you know, pull himself together to like do this work. Yes. Okay.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

usually against me. And I'm just going to make it less confusing against my anti-stigma work. Okay. So look, so far, I'm just going to highlight a couple of thoughts that I think are really, they're really jumping out at me. Actually, no, I'm not going to do that. That's not my job. Hold on. I'm going to ask you to do that. So what I want you to do here is think about which of the thoughts, and it's likely going to be the thoughts that are like the consequence ones, the less of the ones that seem like facts to you, but more of the consequence ones, which of them do you think are most salient and driving a lot of your negative feelings, right? So the competitiveness, feeling inferior, feeling jealous, discouraged, doubtful, et cetera, right? So I'm going to read them out loud once more. That's primarily for the audience. But you can kind of meditate on it and say, yeah, this is the one. This is the most salient, the most prominent one. So I'm a failure for not having academic legitimacy or credentials. I'll never experience upward mobility as a person who is the token, who is always the token with lived experience. Okay. And then we've got, if I didn't use drugs, things in my life would be better, more present, fewer errors, better scheduled. I missed an opportunity to showcase my skills and I'm losing skills due to drug use. I have to show up as someone who is confident in managing my drug use well, even though sometimes I struggle. If I don't show up as put together, people will use that against me and my anti-stigma work. Which of these do you think is really standing out to you as prominent, salient, driving the difficult feelings? I would say that there's a couple of them, but the one that jumped out the most is if I didn't use drugs, things in my life would be better as the driving, right? Okay. What's the other one? Just out of curiosity. It's a tough call because the one about the upward mobility kind of jumped out at me. I was surprised by that. Because the academic one is an older thought, and I've always had that thought. It's been there before this situation. But the one about upper mobility, I don't believe I'll go anywhere in life, right? Okay. And that I'll be left behind almost. And it's a big one that was driving that competitive feeling with my colleague. Yeah. Okay. So you know what? Let's add that as another thought. Because that's truly a consequence. I'll be left behind. And I'm happy to put that in bold as well, because I think it is related to the other thoughts. So I'll just read it out again. The one you first selected was, if I didn't use drugs, things in my life would be better, more present, fewer errors, better scheduled. And there's a worry that I'll be left behind. Now we're going to go to the next column. And this is the column where we are coming up with evidence from your life that supports the hot thought. The hot thought is the prominent thoughts that we've put in bold. And so just for aesthetic purposes, I'm going to bring this up here so we can see both of them together. Jordan, tell me about evidence in your life, things that have happened where you've experienced being left behind where, you know, you've come to realize or you've appreciated in moments that not using drugs has been better for your life. Where do these thoughts come from? Can we start with the second one? Just because that one's easier. So I know that when I had sobriety in my life, which I had a number of years of sobriety, that my cognitive function didn't improve. I didn't experience the amount of everyday challenge with everyday living, like making it to appointments or not double booking things, I was able to show up more. It was pretty clear to me. Okay. So... I'm glad we put two things in bold because what you're telling me is that if I didn't use drugs, some things in your life would be better. And that also is, it seems like it's factual based on like your experience, but you also have this belief that you'll be left behind. Is there evidence of that in your life? Are you feeling stagnant or left behind? I think, again, it's only when I can look at other people in their lives that I ever feel that I'd be left behind because I feel other people have gone on to accomplish a lot more at similar ages than I have. I've always felt left behind because I never finished university when most of my peers did. Yeah, I've always felt like I've just been lagging behind in terms of maturity, in terms of accomplishment. And I know that these things are arbitrary and like socially constructed a lot of the time and not necessarily things I need to hang my self-esteem or self-worth on, but I do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're going to come back to that. I've got some stuff to say that we're going to stick to this process. So you've, you've said your other people my age have done more or have accomplished more. I've always felt like I'm lagging behind. I didn't, Finish university. Okay. So in these certain ways, you have been left behind, so to speak. Now, is there evidence in your life that doesn't support this idea that drug use... alone is what would make, like limiting drug use alone is what would make your life better or that you are not left behind? Evidence that doesn't support that. I mean, certainly like there was also difficulty in my life when I wasn't using drugs and I can't say that using, not using drugs would make my life better in all ways. I guess it doesn't support that thought. So there were still difficulties in my life when I wasn't using drugs. So that's important to know. It's not just like one thing. Another alternative thought here, I mean, I would suggest is, sorry, not alternative thought. Another piece of evidence here is that I was on a panel. I'm on many panels with people who have formal education. and people like what I have to say. I'm just gonna put that in as evidence. I've been on panels with equal footing as others. And those people are sometimes academics. Are there other ways where you haven't been left behind? you know, I think my entire current, like, I think currently I don't feel like I feel left behind in my current work that I'm doing. I feel like I've like, I feel like I'm on the cusp of something. I feel like I'm on the edge of something. I'm doing really interesting work at a really interesting time. Um, I feel like I'm in the moment almost, um, which is odd to say I felt I'm worried about being left behind when I feel very much in the moment currently. Um, Yeah. Also, I've accomplished, despite all those challenges, I've accomplished quite a bit in terms of like, for somebody who's using drugs and has problems with them sometimes, I'm actually accomplishing quite a bit. Give me an example, because I know you have accomplished a lot. I just want to name it. Gosh. What do I want to start with? I'll start with the fact that I created the first gay men's drop-in for guys who party and play in Toronto and Ontario. ever, which was kind of cool. And, you know, what's been doing with the GMSH, the survey that we did, the campaign that I've been working on in collaboration with everybody here, like that's a big piece. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. Okay. So your automatic negative thought, is that if I didn't use drugs, things in my life would be better. More present, fewer errors, better scheduled. But it's tied to a larger fear that you'll be left behind. And I think that's what we're really focusing on here, it seems. When you look at the evidence that supports the idea that you've already been left behind, or if you continue this way, you will be left behind, evidence that does not support that idea. What are some things you might say to yourself that are actually helpful and counter this idea that I'll be left behind? Okay. This is the one I always struggle with when I did CBT, is the alternative thoughts. It is hard. But let me ask you something. Do you want to be an academic? Do you want to go back and get those credentials? Yes and no. Yes, I do. I do. I do. Let's not unpack that one any further because there's a lot of fear there. But I do want to go back and get those credentials. And my life is not over yet. I could still pursue those things if I so choose. I value other people's lived experience as being of equal value to academic expertise. Like I really do. So I don't accept in courtesy to myself. So I think that's an important alternative thought to have is like, I value other people's lived experience. Why can't I do, not why can't I do that for myself? I can do that for myself as well. Okay. So I value other people's oops. lived experience. Oh my gosh, I'm a typing nightmare here. This happens around the this happens toward the end, I start to start to lose my touch. Okay, so read those two alternative thoughts to me and just let's see how they feel for you. I can go back and get academic credentials if they choose what I have to offer is also valuable. I value other people's lived experience and I should value my own as well. That one, I think most resonance for me. And I feel like, yeah, I believe that because it reminds me. Yeah. Okay. I think you might need more alternative thoughts because Jordan, we're living in a world where I think you're right. Some things are going to be by a dominant culture valued more. Right. And so I think we need an alternative thought here about perhaps you carving out your own path and you being the source of your own legitimacy. I don't quite know how to phrase it. What do you think? I think that's a really good point. I also don't know how to phrase that, but you know, one thing that I, sometimes try and remind myself of that could be an alternative thought is that no one is doing what you're doing. No one's been doing what you've been doing. So there is no, there's no standard, I guess I can compare myself to. There's no standard. Yes. And I think I want to get all like critical theory here is like, I often think about like, well, why, Do we value academic contributions? Where is that coming from? Is it a societal thing? What's that informed by? And then I can kind of like look at it and say, well, this is like Western sort of systems of knowledge and the patriarchy and all that jazz and colonialism. That's what makes academic learning so valued. It comes from a really problematic place. So why am I ascribing myself to that set of values when I don't value those things? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00:

It's a little bit complicated, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm going to write here, I don't necessarily value. Actually, I'm going to pause here for a second because part of you does want to get academic credentials. Like there's a longing for that. So there's a tension there, you know? So I'm not going to say that you don't value where it comes from. How about, I think what might be more accurate is, Just as I'm critical of contributions that are rooted in lived experience, I'm also critical of academic contributions. Right. And that works really well, actually. Yeah, so both types of contributions can be judged or criticized, right? Now, the sentiment here, it makes me think about what it means to be left behind. And you talked about comparing yourself to people in your age group or your peers. Is there an alternative thought here about who you should compare yourself to, or is there really no one you can compare yourself to? I don't really feel like there's a lot of value in comparing myself. I feel it's a really destructive kind of thing in my life. Sorry, my alarm's going off on my phone. I feel like it's not been a very productive way of sort of evaluating my contributions or what I'm doing, because it's always in comparison to other people. I know we're social creatures and all that jazz, but I don't think I should be comparing myself to people who are necessarily my peers. A, I have no idea about their life experience and what led them to accomplish all those things at that certain time or age. And it also really diminishes the role that like, Like my past has had in shaping my present, like trauma, like the life I had growing up as a kid and all of that sort of journey gets diminished because doing an apples for apples comparison about like age or, you know, who went to school and finished school. There's a lot of other things that happened in my life that created this sort of trajectory I've been on. So it's not a thing to compare.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

One other thing I want to tackle in the alternative thoughts is this idea that things would be better if you didn't use drugs. But if you didn't currently use drugs, what would be what would be missing in your life or what would you lose? What would you not be able to do? I think that like I think about this a lot. I think some of what I would lose is, you know, a connection to the community that right now I'm really relying on to like do the work that I'm doing. But I think I would lose, I would lose, I would lose a lot of connection with people right now because drug use represents connection for me. I don't know if that's where you were going or you're trying to tie it more. Yeah. No, no, no, no. That's perfect. So drug use represents connection for me. And, I guess you're saying I'd like to maintain that connection at the moment. Yeah, I would. Yeah. It's not that that can never change or that there aren't other forms of connection out there, but you're talking about just the value, right, of these connections. And I think that's important. And I think that's something that I know a lot of other people don't get. Right. But I think we get that. I mean, you get that more than I do, but I get that from working in the field. You get that from lived experience. And here we are. So, Jordan, I'm going to ask you to read all of the alternative thoughts out loud. And I want you to see how they feel for you. And by the end of it, I want you to pick one that you think you believe the most, you like the most, you think that is the most helpful.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, so I can go back and get academic credentials if I choose. What I have to offer is also valuable. I value other people's lived experience and I should value my own as well. No one is doing what I'm doing, so there is no way to compare myself in an objective way. And just as I'm critical of contributions that are rooted in lived experience, I'm also critical of academic contributions. Drug use represents connection for me and I'd like to maintain that connection right now. there one no that was it yeah well that's good that makes that's good all right which one do you believe the most which one fits most for you when you think about the original situation you know you're talking to your colleague and you feel like you're being left behind and you're being critical of your own drug use i am going to say that it is number two that has the most like It feels the most believable. It feels like something that I'm willing to believe. Yeah. And you know, when people do things like affirmations, one thing that I worry about is that it's not always a statement that they believe strongly. And so for you, I like that you're saying this is something I believe in. So I value other people's lived experience and I should value my own as well. And when you say that to yourself and you believe it, how do you then rate your affirmations? Feeling of competitiveness. Okay, how do I read it? I would say it's like maybe at a two. Okay. Like I'm not very competitive at all. Feeling minimized. I would say maybe like at a three or a two. Let's go with three. Okay. Inconsequential. Three. Jealous. Two. Okay. And just so you know, it's okay if some of these remain high. I'm not... But if it's going down, that's also great. Okay. How about your sense of shame or inferiority? I'd say about a four. That's a constant one for me. It's... That's okay. Yep. Injustice? Two. Angry? One. Admiration? Let's go with a four for that. Yeah. Sadness. One. Grief. One. Discouraged. Probably a four. Celebratory. I'd say about a six. And doubtful. I'd say about a five. Okay. Jordan, do any new feelings come up for you when you're having this discussion? We're talking about, you know, your boss is there. You're talking about, you know, the positive feedback you both received. Even though you weren't there, you're telling yourself, you know, Because part of where you weren't there maybe had to do with organization and that maybe was related to drug use. But you're saying to yourself, this is how I show up in the world and I value other people's lived experience and I should value my own as well, right? What else are you feeling in this moment? Are there other feelings? Like what's showing up for me right now in this moment is like a sense of like, there's also a sense of like self-compassion, I guess, or self-love. Self-love. But like a little bit of like that compassionate feeling, which is nice. And yeah, there's definitely a sense of content. Yeah. Content. And I think pride seems like a big one, like pride. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What about achievement? Achievement. Yeah. I would say that's there. as well. I think that's maybe more what I meant by pride than pride itself. I think achievement is more salient. That's okay. I love all the feeling words. Do you feel a sense of team or camaraderie that comes up? Definitely. I'm just thinking about what's different than competition, yeah? Yeah, a sense of collaboration, a sense of team spirit. Team spirit. Team spirit. And team spirit really, you know, is like the feeling is often belonging. So I'll just put that in there. So Jordan, this has taken us to the end of the thought record, right? And I'm curious to know, like a lot of people do this and their mood ratings or their The present feeling ratings don't necessarily go down a lot. Yours happen to. Tell me a bit about what this process has been like for you or any reflections on what you might have learned. Well, I've learned that I have an awful lot of thinking going on in my head when I'm in these situations. It's a good reminder, though, that there are so many different layers and types of thoughts. My feelings went down because, A, I've got the benefit of looking at it from a great distance where I'm not as in touch with those immediate feelings. So it's easier for me to say, well, they're downplayed or they've lowered. But I also think that what this experience did was reminded me a lot of the idea that most of the facts that I'm basing my thoughts off of are not correct or not accurate. And so the feelings don't feel as... I'm not as connected to those feelings because I realize there's a bit of a fallacy or a bit of a false belief underneath a lot of them. The thing about valuing other people's lived experience is why do I extend that to other people? And yet I'm making an exception for myself to get worse. It's like, well, okay, I get where that comes from. And like, no, I really should value my own work. And like, why would I participate in a system of oppression and myself? Like, you know, yeah. Lives matter. Their, their experiences matter. They're not the only experience, but like there's the equal space at the table. So absolutely. And, you know, okay. So I really enjoyed doing this with you because it gave me a sense of all the variety of things that you're thinking about and, in this moment that's so deeply personal, but it's also about your work. It's about your family history. It's about who you are politically, right? There's a number of things that are coming together here. And I think one thing, you know, that stood out to me was you are you're really trying to carve your own path. It seems to me like you're like trailblazing in a way. And so if you were to say, I've been left behind, you know, more accurately, there's things that I've not, I've chosen not to participate in, or I haven't been able to cause they weren't created for minds like me, you know, or for, or for spirits like me. Um, Because in a sense, like, sure, you know, if you said, I want to be an academic and now I want to go back to school. Yeah, that it's factual that that might be harder for you now than it was at a different time, perhaps. Right. But I don't think that's. misses the point and the point here is that you're doing things you're trying to do it in a different way in accordance with some of your values right um i think one of the things that really stood out for me also was the predicament you're in as somebody who's an active drug user and you're politically in defense of preserving the humanity of people who are drug users, but you are also at times falling apart on the inside, or it seems that way. And I think we have to come up with a statement, or you might think about coming up with a statement that holds multiple truths, where like, I could make changes to my drug use if I really need to, and that doesn't make me a less valuable advocate, Or I can at times fall apart in front of people and that doesn't make my message less valuable. You know, like I'm thinking about pairing two different statements with an and that allows multiple truths to exist. And I think that's very important. You're smiling. What are you thinking? That second one that you said, I was like, oh, I don't like that one. Oh, which one? The one about I can fall apart and it doesn't make my message any less valuable. I was like, oh, that challenges me so much. But the useful one or something like that is useful for me because I struggle the most with that, which is when I'm not all together, which is some of the time. I abandon myself quite a lot in those moments and I just berate myself. And so I would rather have a statement that reminds me that like, I can be a mess. Everybody's a mess sometimes, right? I don't see other people's messes maybe in the same way I see mine. Yeah. Or experiencing the same way, but everybody falls apart. And yeah, it doesn't. And, and, you know, the, the phrase I like for that, that I often draw on is I can't compare other people's outsides to my insides. You know, do that though. I'm like, Oh, you know, so. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Jordan, before we end today, is there anything else you want to say or share or reflect on, or even ask about CBT, this process before we wrap up? So doing this on my own has always been a struggle or challenge for me. Like it's really great that I can bounce this off of you. And it's also, eminently impractical to do this on a daily basis with every single thought that's coming into my head. I'm working on this on my own to make it a more engaging experience or to like make it a more useful experience or one that I'll pick up from time to time again. Right. You know, I would suggest that you think like the situation that's difficult, as soon as it's passed, like it's in the recent past, I would think about just two or three feelings that were coming up. Maybe what the thoughts are related to those. And when you identify the thoughts, the key question to ask yourself is, what does this say about me or my life? Or what is the consequence of this if it's true? And then right away, come up with an alternative.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Because when we ask the question, what does this say about me if this is true? What is the consequence of this to my life? That is the belief that is underneath that thought that is kind of factual to you. And that's what we want to shift, the belief. Right. Okay. That seems accessible. Those questions about the things about my life were the powerful ones for me in this experience as well. When you asked those questions, I was like, oh, huh. Yeah. And I think it's also important when we come up with alternative thoughts to be realistic, right? Like an alternative thought could have also been, if I didn't use drugs, I'd be able to schedule better, but I'd be a lot more lonelier. That's like, that could be an alternative thought, you know, if it's helpful and you believe in it. All right. Jordan, thank you so much for being a guest on the CBT Dive. And thank you for doing the important work that you do. I hope you continue to find spaces where you can talk about your own nuanced experiences as an activist, as a person with lived experience, and a person who's making important contributions to gay men's health. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at thecbtdive.ca. You can also listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts. To follow Rahim on social media, check out ladyativan.com. See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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