The CBT Dive

E22 The aftermath of being ghosted

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Episode 22

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When you’re ghosted by someone after a couple of dates, it’s legitimately infuriating. It’s okay to feel frustrated and even deceived. But, what else comes up for you in those moments? In this episode, we explore the underlying fears that get reawakened after a ghosting experience. These include fears of being unworthy or unattractive and also an overarching fear of never finding happiness. Through the therapeutic process, this guest unexpectedly challenges beliefs about the formulas and frameworks of relationship-seeking. 
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ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive, a vodcast that goes into the lives of real people with real struggles. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioral therapy tool, the Thought Record. Your host, Rahim Thawar, is a social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto and well-known for his work in LGBTQ communities. He's created the CBT Dive to demonstrate What therapy can look like and share intervention skills for wellness. We hope that each episode helps you along on your own journey for insight and self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01:

welcome to another episode of the cbt dive today i've got joash with me joash is a 42 year old sales professional working in the global workforce mental health field he is based in johannesburg south africa and regularly travels worldwide working with businesses looking to implement mental health care programming joash navigates life as a single cisgender gay man, a relatively new relationship status after a 13-year committed relationship. But after three years of being single, with a rather adventurous dating lifestyle or life, he feels like he is ready for a serious commitment once more. So we're joined by Joash today, who is going to explore the experience of being ghosted. Joash, how are you today? I'm good, Rahim. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Now, from what I understand, you have heard of CBT, but you've never done a CBT exercise quite like this. Is that right? Yes, that's right. I've never been. Well, I guess to some extent, but not in a comprehensive manner that we're about to do that today. And how does it feel for you to... talk about things that are so personal for the first time and in this kind of way where you're going to examine your own thoughts in a very vulnerable way. What does that feel like for you? There's a level of anxiety, but I think what gives me... courage to move through the anxiety is that I know that there'll be people who will see this and who'll be able to learn from it and be able to take things away that will help them. And that makes me okay with this. And I think it's always good to be vulnerable and I know I'm in a safe space. So yeah. Yes. Okay. I appreciate that. I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. All right. Can you see that thought record up on the screen? Yes. Okay. We both can. That's always good. Okay. So Joash, what we're starting with here is a situation that brings up difficult feelings for you. Okay. And that situation is this moment. And I know it's not just one moment. It probably happens over the course of a couple of hours where you realize that you've been ghosted because the texting pattern with this person who we're going to call Ellie has changed and he stopped responding. Is there anything else you want to share about the particular situation or the, or the moments when you realized you'd been ghosted? Yeah. So let me give you some context and some background to this. So I had met Ellie on one of the dating apps and he wasn't particularly my type. And I, you know, having said that, I don't really have the time, but I know when I'm not into someone and it wasn't particularly into him and he had texted me and also he was not even on my grid. So like he found me somehow, but anyway, you know, he was polite and he was engaging and he was entertaining. So like, okay, there's nothing to lose. So we chatted for a bit. And then I think he suggested, you know, he'd like to meet. So we did meet and he came over to my place. And when he came over again, still physically, not really my type, but intellectually, we had a really great time. Like we connected on so many levels. He made me laugh in a way that many people don't generally do. And And because I felt this connection and the strong chemistry with him, on that night when we met, it also became physical, which neither of us were expecting and anticipating on that night. And in the run-up to that first meeting, there was very frequent texting between the two of us. And he was very responsive. So if I texted, he'd reply fairly quickly. If he replied, I'm always usually responsive with my messages. So yeah, I would reply. And so we had some great banter over text. And then we scheduled a second date. And in the run-up to the second date, I can see that the The texting patterns had changed, but he did give some context to why it had changed. He said that he had a family event. And so I took that at face value and I was okay with that. And then we met. How that second dated was dinner and a movie. And throughout the dinner and movie, it was pretty good. But I could also sense during dinner that something had changed, shifted a little. But I just thought that maybe I was reading into things a little too much. Because when we sat down at the movies, you know, we were cuddling and kissing and all of those things. Sorry, Joash. Sorry, the movies was date two, is that right? That's right. Dinner and a movie was date two. Okay, so the ghosting, so the texting pattern changed between date one and two or after date two? That's right. between date one and two, the pattern had already changed, but he substantiated that with saying that he had some family stuff going on. He had a family together at his place. And so it made it legitimate that there's going to be a change and a slowdown because he had stuff going on. And he also had a friend who was visiting from another city, from Cape Town, who was staying with him for the weekend. So It was all fairly legitimate and complete. It made sense. Yes. And it made sense. Yeah. But on that second date with the dinner in the movie, I could sense like he was very, he was effusive with his attraction to me. He's like constantly told me how much he thought that I was, that he found me attractive. And that in the second date was, had also changed. Like he stopped telling me that he thought that I was so attractive any longer. And, but then that was during dinner and at the movie, there was the cuddling and the kissing and the making out at the movie. So, so again, I thought, no, this is just in my head. And he had picked me up from my place for the second date. And so he dropped me off. And when he dropped me off, he declined to come in. He just dropped me off at the gate and he declined to come in. And again, I thought, okay, maybe the guy's just tired. He's had a busy weekend and that's okay. And after that, then there was further lulls in the texting conversation. And again, he gave reasons for that. He was busy with work. And I think so that that dinner and movie was either on a Saturday or Sunday. And I think the Monday and Tuesday we texted and then by the Wednesday or Thursday, there was radio silence. I texted and say, hey, how are you? Is everything okay? And no response and no response to this day. And we're talking about four months later. And you know, I thought maybe he'd blocked me and he didn't because I could still see his profile picture on his messaging app. My messages were being delivered. So he did not block me, but it was a pure situation. It was a situation of just being ghosted. And I think maybe about a month later, I had just sent him like a forwarded message like you know just a random meme or something um and no response even to that and so yeah here we are a good few months later and that was the trajectory of that now the thing that was so frustrating is that i never even found the guy physically attractive but i felt felt into something with his personality. And I thought like, oh my God, this guy is the kind of person that while I don't find him physically attractive, like there's something here that I could work with. And so to be ghosted by someone that I didn't even find physically attractive was like hella infuriating.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

but it was also the potential of what could have been, because this is someone that I've felt there could be substance here. And that physicality we all know is fleeting because it's not what you build a foundation on. Sure. Okay. I'm going to pause you there. That context was beautiful. And as you began to talk about the, the rationale for why things were frustrating or infuriating, what you see the foundation of a relationship being, those are all really important things that we're gonna, I think we're gonna come back to. So the Wednesday after date two and you discover the radio silence, you felt frustrated, infuriated, what were the other feelings you were experiencing? So, yeah, frustrated, infuriated, angry with myself. Angry with myself for falling for someone that was not. And again, I keep saying this physical type thing because I believe to an extent it is bullshit. I think that we can build a connection with anyone that we have a cerebral connection with, regardless of the physicality. My belief is that we're conditioned into that. having physical types. And so I try as much as possible to not veer towards this physical type. But having said that, he was not someone that I would typically find myself dating physically. And so I found myself being angry that I started feeling attraction to someone I generally would have walked past. Okay. So when you allow yourself... to do something you wouldn't normally do. You're entering into a kind of connection, encounter, relationship. You're embarking on something that you wouldn't normally do. In a way, you're taking... It's like a social risk. And when you take a risk and you get a slap in the face, I'm trying to figure out what the feeling there would be. Would it be like a kind of embarrassment? Or would it be... Would it be a deeper sense of rejection? What are the feelings that come with that? So I get that you're a bit angry with yourself, but then are you embarrassed or exposed? What are the other feelings? Taken advantage of? Yeah, possibly taken advantage of. I wouldn't call it being embarrassed though. It was, I always say this to myself, trust your instinct. And I felt that in that moment in time, I didn't trust my instinct. I was taken with how I was flattered by how much he found me attractive in his words. And, you know, that's, you know, it strokes your ego. So it's almost like I was driven by my ego in that moment. And then my ego let me down or my ego reminded me that I Ego doesn't serve you. Okay. When your ego... Sorry. When your ego... Okay, so instead of taking advantage of, I just used the word used. It's a bit shorter, of course. When you talk about... the bruising of the ego. I'm trying to figure out what feeling words could be attached to that. And again, my mind is going to embarrassed or, or discouraged, but I'm not sure. So help me out here. When your ego was bruised, what kinds of feelings were happening for you? Yeah. I would say that it could be frustration, which I've said. I'm hesitant to say embarrassed. And the reason why is because I'm someone who doesn't embarrass easily. Or if I do get embarrassed, I recover quite quickly from that. I've considered myself over the years to be resilient. And so embarrassment is not something that exists within my orbit, within my vocabulary. Okay. So I don't like myself. Okay. But Joash, it seems like you're talking about how you protect yourself against something that... you don't like to feel, or you like to jump quickly to being resilient, but there is a space in between being ghosted and bouncing back that we have to acknowledge. So would you say that you experienced embarrassment to a small degree? I would say it's despair. Despair. Okay. Okay. I'm going to leave embarrassed there, but I recognize that despair is one of the more prominent words. I also want to ask if there was sadness. Sadness and despair. Yeah. To me, those go hand in hand. Okay. And would you say that you also were feeling like, did you feel like, a solid sense of rejection? Because I know you talked about, oh, there's so many reasons why maybe he didn't come in that day or his texting pattern changed. Did you personally feel rejected? Like he doesn't like me? Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. Because if you think about it, if I have to think about it rather, something had to have happened, right? Either it was a reaction to something I've said or a reaction to who I am on any kind of level, whether it was he was looking for this masculine Adonis and here I am with this very femme personality and being. And that was not aligned with what he wanted. I don't know. I still don't know what I was rejected for. And so it's the despair and sadness of the rejection. And of course, the nature of ghosting is that you don't have an opportunity to ask the question. You don't have closure to it. You're really just thrown in the garbage bin. Yes. And so... You know, I don't mind being rejected because I know a huge part of life is failure. A huge part of life is rejection. And you learn from that, right? Because that's what failure does is it sets you up for the next activity and you learn from those mistakes. But if you're not given any feedback, but if you're not given any feedback and there's no closure, no conversation, it's not about improvement. It's just about- the rejection on its own. So I want to go back to a moment ago where you said the thoughts that went through your mind were about like, am I too femme or do I not meet his ideal? I wonder if the feeling there is about around inferiority or inadequacy. Do you think, did you feel inadequate a little bit? Yeah. I would say to an extent, to an extent inadequate, perhaps inferior, but also where do I fit in to this gay dating scene?

SPEAKER_00:

But also

SPEAKER_01:

where do I fit into his world? So confused. I don't know. Yeah, and I didn't have that opportunity to ask, especially since, and you mentioned Confused, but that first date was just electric on so many levels. The chemistry was there and the banter was there and we clicked on all of these different levels, physically, mentally, socially, it was all just popping, honey. But fast forward to literally a week later and you've fallen off and you given no, no notion, no insight into why that had happened. And so it was, it was confusion, but it left me one. So the thing is, and I'm speaking, you know, in terms of my experience, I guess, because I'm at this phase of my life, I'm confident enough to not be knocked down by someone else's opinion of me. Everyone's got an opinion. I may not always agree with it. I may not always like it, but you're entitled to your, your opinion. And also I know that I'm never going to be liked by everyone and I'm completely okay with that, but I know there are people who truly love me and that's something that gives me, you know, it sustains me and gives me, um, happiness and joy and all of those wonderful things that goes along with being loved and accepted. So being rejected by one person is not the be all and end all. It's not rejected without. Yeah. But being rejected with no recourse is where it becomes egregious on many levels. Okay. Okay. So because you talk about love, the close people in your life and their love being of importance to you. And it seems like that's what you build your resilience around. On the Wednesday after date two, when you experience this like radio silence, for a moment, were you feeling unworthy or were you questioning your worth for the moment? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Okay. Which is why the very first thing I did was log back onto the dating apps. Because, you know... Oh. So you were feeling determined and a bit vengeful as well. Well, I wouldn't call it vengeful, but now that you're saying it... Yes. Okay. That's kind of true. Because, you know, it's like... You motherfucker. I'm going to show you. I can get dick if I want to. Yes. Yes. Okay. And so determined, vengeful. Okay. This is good. This is good. So look, I want you to take a moment. It's hard because you're, you're quite a resilient person. And you've got the story of, well articulated and laid out. So this exercise is going to disrupt the story a little bit because I want you to go back to the Wednesday after date two when you discovered the radio silence and help me with each of these feelings. I want you to rate them on a scale of one to 10 in terms of intensity. So 10 means it's quite intense on the Wednesday after date two. One would be not intense at all. How would you rate frustration? So do they all have to have a different rating scale or can they, like, as an example, can they all be a 10? They could all be a 10, but I would want you to consider each feeling differently in that particular moment, the Wednesday after day two. So frustration... I would say that was probably a seven. And I'll tell you why. Because I had already in my mind started to build a future with this man. Because I thought there could really be something here and we could have something really solid. And, you know, you mentioned in my bio that I'd been in a long-term relationship. While my dating life is hella fun and adventurous, as you mentioned, I would like to have that gold standard of a relationship again. And that is what I'm looking for. So when I'm dating, I am dating with the outcome of a relationship. Yes. If it falls short at just sex, I'm okay with that too. If it falls short of just dates, I'm okay with that. But in my mind, relationships are the gold standard and it's something that I wanted. So frustration was high on that list. High. Yeah. Yes. Tell me. That context is very useful. And again, it'll be very important a bit later. So in the behavior column, I've already started to put like, what was going on for you was thinking about the future you'd built up in your mind. Come back to the Wednesday after date two when you discover radio silence. How would you rate inferiority? Sorry, being infuriated.

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

would say that... It was also pretty high. Yeah, I would say that was probably at about an eight. Again, because like, how dare he? And then anger. He most certainly does not. Also, yeah, I was pretty pissed off about that. So was the anger also about an eight? Uh-huh. Okay. And feeling used or taken advantage of where would, how would you rate that? You know, I wouldn't call that, I wouldn't say that's high on that list only because to an extent I was complicit in it too, in that, you know, we had a good physical time together. So I would say maybe that's a six. Okay. And embarrassed.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Again, because I don't embarrass easily, I would put that at perhaps a four. Okay. And despair. Yeah, this was high because, you know, it was, again, the future planner in me had that decimated at that point in time. So I would say that would be about an eight. Eight. And sadness, would that also be an eight? Because you said sadness and despair go hand in hand. Agree. And then the feeling of rejection. Oh, I mean, that's a 10. Because I mean, clearly, I was rejected in that. Yes. Feeling of inadequacy. Like I'm not enough, or maybe I'm not I don't fit the aesthetic or whatever it is. You know, when I see, when I think of inadequacy, I, and you know, I am such a contradiction on this and I'll completely own that I'm a contradiction on this because I know that we're a diverse community. I know that we should celebrate everything. But at the same time, I myself aspire to the textbook definition, whatever the fuck that may be, of what a successful gay man is. So yeah, and so inadequate, yes and no, because I know that I am worthy, but I also know that I fall short of many standards that gay men aspire to. Okay. I'm going to pause you there for a moment. I'm going to pause you there for a moment because what you're telling me now is it's really about how you conceptualize and begun to cope with the difficulty of gay culture and gay community and the dating scene. And so we may get there. We may not, but allow yourself time. to own how the degree to which you felt inadequate in that moment. So the Wednesday afternoon, how would you rate that? Because it might be higher than you would like to believe, or it might be in the background. It might be like a two or a three, I'm not sure. How would you rate it? Yeah, I would rate that at about a four, to be honest, because I know that in comparison to Ellie, I was definitely adequate. I know that. Yeah. And then confused. I imagine that was a bit high. That was high. I would say that was a 10 because like, what the fuck? All the signals were there that this was amazing. And then, yeah. Yeah. And then I, Unworthy, similar to inadequate, but slightly different. How was your sense of worthiness? I would say that's also at about a four, maybe even a five. Oops. Because, yeah, a four, maybe even a five. Yeah. You struggle with wondering, where did I fall short again? And so that feeling of unworthiness comes in. Yes, of course. And then to what degree did you feel vengeful and determined? So give me a rating of intensity for each one. Oh, determined was the 10, honey. When you get off a horse, you got to get back on. And so determined was definitely a 10. I'd say like, you know, maybe subconsciously I'm vengeful, but generally I wouldn't call myself a vengeful person, but I'd say that's probably a seven. Cause like, you know what you go, I'm going to do this anyway, with or without you. Yes. And there's also, you know, earlier when we were talking about being used, and I know that that word didn't quite fit. I wonder if a better word would be deceived. Did you feel like you were deceived? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good word. And because when we feel deceived, so if we have a physical connection with somebody and we're vulnerable and then they ghost us, I can see how we feel inadequate or If we are spending time with somebody and we think that they like us and then they're gone somehow. Excuse me. I think it's not so much that we are unworthy, but we it's like we've been tricked in some way. And so how would you rate your level of deception that you experienced? Now that you've labeled that, I would say that was very high because he had led me on to believe that he was just so enamored with me. And then to go from literally a week later to having zero communication, that's deception. Yes. And so I would put that at like a 10. Ah, okay. So bear with me a moment. I'm going to... I'm going to reorganize some of the feelings. And this is actually one of the benefits of moving to therapy online because I've never used to do this in person, but I found that it can be quite useful to just take all the feelings that are rated as nine and 10 and put them together because it paints a slightly different picture of what's been going on. So I'll just be a moment here. Now, as you look at this feelings list, especially as I'm rearranging it, my question to you is, Do new feelings come up that you feel like you might have forgotten? Or is there new insight here in looking at the range of feelings that you didn't have before? Is listing and identifying the feelings in and of itself helpful? Yeah, so listing the feelings is incredibly helpful because I like to think that I'm a mindful person and that I'm self-aware. but I've never done that on this type of level and the scale and to see this in front of my eyes is, is a, is, yeah, it's pretty insightful and useful in a way that I've not done before. Okay. So the feelings that got the highest ratings were deceived, rejected, confused, determined. And, you know, the most painful ones are probably deceived and rejected. And then confused is a bit neutral and determined. We tend to see that we would see that as positive. So it's not a surprise to me that deceived got lost earlier because there's so many strong feelings and some overshadow others. And then you have your second set of difficult feelings and I think those are maybe some of the more painful ones. Infuriated, anger, despair, sadness. And then we go down a notch, vengeful, frustration, used, unworthy, inadequate, and embarrassed. So now, Joash, Wednesday after date two, you discover the radio silence. You're feeling this range of emotions. one of the things you did in terms of your behavior was go back onto the dating apps, right? The other thing you're doing is you're also thinking about the future you'd built up in your mind with this person. So you're reflecting a bit on where you let your imagination go. In terms of behavior, is there anything else you did? So some people... I ask about behavior. It's a bit tricky because it's not what you were thinking. It's more like, did I go for a jog? Did I start drinking? Did I go back onto the dating app? Did I send a bunch of angry messages? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So immediate behaviors would be telling my friends and say, can you believe the nerve of this fucking asshole who's just ghosted me? Yes. So there was that. And... So seeking some validation. Seeking validation, yeah. Yeah. And probably the bigger aspect of seeking validation was getting back into the dating apps because, you know, again, I was determined to not let this be a speed bump on my... road to finding a relationship. So just getting back on and finding someone else that I can find a connection with. Okay. Okay. And when you think about you know, when you earlier, one of the first feelings you came up with was anger and you said anger toward myself. And so I'm thinking that anger and feeling deceived are, there's a connection between those two. Cause it's not just, I was deceived or I feel deceived. I've been tricked, but there's a piece of you that says, I let myself be deceived. So in your mind, when you say, I feel deceived, I feel anger. What are you thinking? What's the thought there? That I allowed myself to get into that situation against my better judgment. So going back to what I mentioned earlier, my instinct is that I would have walked past this guy had I seen him on the street and not really paid him any attention. And my friends tease me and that I find 90% of men hot. He's not in the 90%. So... Joash, we can tell the audience, I am that friend who teases you. Anytime we're together, I'm like, oh my gosh, Joash finds this guy. He's so hot. Like, what a surprise. Like, okay, he's in... He's in the top 90%, groundbreaking. Okay. He's not in the 90%. So look, I think when it comes to confusion, there's confusion about what happened, but I think there's also confusion around your approach to dating. It throws you for a loop in a way, because on the one hand you say, you know, you lead with physical attraction when you first meet somebody. And then you also think that physical attraction doesn't have to be completely important. And I wonder if it makes that confuses you a bit. So it does. So there's, there's two sides of that, right? So I think physical attraction is key to igniting something. You know, that's the Tinder. Okay. Yes. You know, physical attraction is the Tinder that gets us into wanting to start a conversation. But physical attraction fades incredibly quickly if there's no substance behind that. And the substance being a cerebral connection, the substance being alignment of values, the substance being wanting the same thing having the same aspirations or similar aspirations in life, because those are the building blocks and the foundations for something that is sustainable as a relationship. And so while you may have physicality as the tender, it does not sustain something long-term. And so that's why I always, yeah, I'm attracted to you. I think you're hot, but if you're vapid or you're not aligned to who I am, this is not going to go anywhere beyond a hookup or flirtation or whatever the case is. Okay. So thank you for that. There's a lot, there's a lot of good material here that we're going to have to circle back to when you felt like Now, I have a sense of why you felt deceived and what the thought is that's connected to that. Tell me about the thought that was connected to feeling rejected, inadequate, and unworthy. Because even though those have different ratings, I would group them together in terms of similarity of emotion. So when you felt rejected, what was going on in your mind? And you alluded to this earlier about being femme and not being the Adonis, et cetera, but spell it out for me here. What was going on in your mind? I'm not, or. So, so I tried to be pragmatic about this. And so let me tell you the pragmatic side. No, don't be pragmatic. Actually, I want you to not be pragmatic. I want you to go right into, because when you're being pragmatic, I'll be honest with you, because I know you, when you're being pragmatic, there's a lot of work going into... Avoiding? Not just avoiding, but making sure you're not misunderstood and that I have a picture of your overall way of thinking. It's really important to you that I know that you're realistic and that you're resilient, even though your heart was broken, right? And so in this session, I want you to know that I get that. I hear you. You are pragmatic. You are resilient. And in this moment, you were feeling pain. So tell me, let's go deeper into the pain. So you felt rejected, unworthy. Tell me about the thoughts that are connected to rejection and unworthiness. So let me give you some other context that I didn't mention to you. Yes. So Eddie is a white man who has a penchant for brown men like myself. Now... And his previous relationship, he was in a committed relationship too. I can't remember how long, but it was a long-term relationship with another brown man. And the minute I heard that, it was a red flag that I am just fulfilling his fetish for brown men. And I don't like that, especially if you're a white man Don't fetishize me. So again, against my better judgment, I entertained him. Again, because he was effusive in his attraction to me, you know, very verbal about it. And so my ego played into it. And when it was the ghosting, it was, So going back to what was I used, the anger that I felt, the pain, but also All right, Joash, sorry we got cut off for a moment. I just want to come back to this last story you were telling me about Ellie. And if I were to turn that story into a thought, it would be, I fulfilled his fetish for brown men and it backfired. You also said, I ignored the red flags. If I could ask a follow-up there, you know, Was there part of you that ignored the red flags because you felt a bit of a power dynamic or because he was a white guy? In your mind, sometimes in dating is like someone else's whiteness a bit seductive. No. So to me, that's never been the case. I don't find lure in white men. I mean, while I've dated and sexed white men, I have not fallen into that trap of... Enslavement, if you want to call that.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So you don't feel trapped by that kind of internalized struggle. Okay. Look. If anything, I prefer brown men, to be very honest. So no. Okay. That's not something. And so if you fell into this fetish and you ignored the red flags, What does that mean? Or what does it say about you? If you fall for someone else's trap or you don't listen to your own gut, what does that say about you? That I'm not as attuned to my inner thoughts as I thought I was, or that I, while I like to think that I don't operate from a place of ego that clearly doesn't There are times when I do. And there's times when I get sucked into a trap of affirmation from people who don't mean anything. And, you know, you know that I'm not on social media. And one of the reasons why I took myself off of social media is I didn't like who I was when I got there. the attention from people. It kind of made me narcissistic. And I didn't like that. I found myself seeking that validation of how many likes can this post get? How viral can this or whatever it is. And I didn't like who I became as a result of social media. And this is exactly the same situation now that I'm thinking about it. that I found myself in, except it's real world, it's not social media. It's with a human being that I had a connection with, not an unknown face behind a screen. Okay. So I tried to put, when I asked... Like, what does this mean for you? Or what does it say about you? I got a couple of things, but I'm not sure if I captured it accurately. So help me here. The first thing is I'm not as attuned to myself and people dynamics as I thought. And the other one is affirmations from people are good for my ego. And I don't want to be at the mercy of others likes. So that's accurate. And so, It is accurate. So I can give you some more context to that. So I grew up as a fat kid, and that bled into my young adult life. I started to lose weight when I was a young adult. And over the course of my adult life, my weight would fluctuate, as it still does to this day. And there's times where I'd be... 10, 15 pounds heavier. And there's times where I'll be 10 pounds lighter. And immediately when I was heavier, people would, the first question people would ask me, are you still going to gym? And I knew for someone who does religiously go to gym, whether I'm fat or thin, I knew that was a subtle way of saying, oh, you've gone fat. And so conversely, when people would say, oh, you're looking, you've lost weight, you're looking so great. I would consciously distance myself from that association that my attractiveness is built into the size of my body. And that goes back directly to what you've just put down as that second thought bubble. Yeah. While I have tried to consciously dissociate myself from people's perception of my level of attractiveness, I, honest to God, try to dissociate myself from that. I clearly do not within the context of dating. That I, to some extent, thrive on that. Whereas in social circles, I actively dissociate myself But yet in a sexualized context, in a dating context, I'm clearly thriving on that. So in this context with Ellie, when you were ghosted, was one of your thoughts about your body? Is that where your mind went? Like, is my body not thin enough or muscular enough? Yeah, not just body. you know, it goes into all facets of who I am. So body would be one component of that. The other components are going back to what we mentioned earlier. Am I just too, too effeminate for him? Am I not brown enough for him? Because while I am a brown person, I'm not the most brown person out there in terms of cultural identity. You know, he's more brown than I am for, for crying out loud. I mean, he's really, follows Hindu religion and all of these fucking things that I, you know, while I'm curious about it, I don't. I grew up Christian. I don't eat curry and biryani every day while I do love it. Does he do that? All these things. I think he does. I don't know who the fuck is, but you know, I mean, this is more than a red flag. Somebody who eats biryani every day is a red flag, sweetie. I don't know, but he was like culturally a lot more Brown than I was. That's what I'm saying. And so, and he made you feel for a moment, not Brown enough. Cause like to be Brown doesn't mean to be Hindu. Right. But that is, From the perspective of the white gaze, that is absolutely what brownness is. It's about, you know, like images of gods and goddesses or higher beings. It's ritual and all of this kind of stuff. So I'm thinking I'm not brown enough. So go stay with this for a moment. If you're not brown like other men or you're not as into this idea of culture, then what does that say about you? Is that he may not see me as being authentic. He may see me as being what other people would. And does that mean that you, for a moment, worry that you're not authentic enough or you're not connected enough to your identity? I don't. I mean... No. So... Yes, I don't feel that, but I feel that that may be his perception because I'm comfortable with my level of cultural identity. I am not by any stretch of the imagination ashamed of my culture. I truly embrace it, but do I bathe in all its glory every moment of every day? Hell no. Well, yeah. So if I got this right, you're thinking I'm not brown enough. And it's a reminder that people think, people might think I'm not connected to my culture and that puts them off. And coming back to my body isn't thin enough or good enough. Were there any, were there any other thoughts that were associated to your body? So I know that there's a, there's a visual memory and image of like the fat kid and people responding or, or giving you compliments about weight loss and, and, and you don't like that. Did this person ever comment on your body in that way? He did. He was actually very positive about my body. He always says, oh, I can see your workout. And that was something, again, that I got sucked into. I got sucked into the ego play that was there. the affirmations that he gave me. And again, I consciously tried to not allow myself to do that, but clearly I did within this context. And so going back to those feelings, it's that feeling of, of anger and maybe despair that I am not as, um, Elevated as I thought in my thinking, that I'm not as evolved as I thought in my thinking or in my self-acceptance. Ah, so let's make the distinction here. When you say evolved in your self-acceptance or in your thinking, what are you, in what way? What do you mean by evolved? Like I don't love myself as much as I thought I did? To an extent. So let me give you this context. I've always... I've had to make peace with my body in my thirties. If I didn't, I would have just been a crazy hot mess if I did not. So I have made peace with my body and the journey and trajectory that I've been on through weight loss and weight gain over the years. And so I would like to think that at this point in time that I, that I, am fulfilled in what my body is, flaws and all. I genuinely do feel that way. So let me preface it. I genuinely do feel that way. But then there's also the point, the part of me rather that feels my body, as much as I am self-accepting of my body, does not fit into what the culture, the gay culture, yes, validates and accepts. Yep. Okay. So when you say my body isn't thin enough for good enough, like that's one of the thoughts, I get that you've gone through a process of self acceptance. But you're also saying here that it's not thin enough for good enough for gay culture. Is that right? And yeah, for the gay culture. So, because let's be honest, social media has also done a good thing, which is say that we should preach body positivity, body neutrality, that our bodies are our bodies and we should all embrace and accept, which is a great thing. But that is something that is a social media trend. Does it translate into the minds of what actually transpires in actions and On dating apps? I don't think so. Okay. So give me a moment here. What you're saying, if we were to bring that into this situation, is that this guy maybe lied to me about being into my body. Is that what you're thinking? Okay. And... When you think your body isn't good enough for gay culture, one of the implications is that like, okay, so this guy lied to me. And if he lied to you, or if your body isn't good enough for gay culture, what's one of the long-term consequences of that? Or is there a fear associated with that? So the fear for me is that you'll never fit into Or you'll never find happiness. Like I said, I'm relationship oriented. So if I don't fit into the textbook definition of what a gay man should look like, then my chances diminish at finding someone suitable for me. Okay. So you're thinking based on what you told us before, you know, where you have this larger belief that physical attraction sparks a connection and then that connection gets sustained with emotional and mental connection later on. So, you know, if your body isn't thin enough or good enough for gay culture, what you're saying here is that there are fewer opportunities for sparking. Yeah. With other gay men. Right. And if I were to take that further, like in a moment of despair or in a moment where you're feeling quite dire, you might say, I'll never find happiness. That's like the underlying fear. Okay. Let's pause here for a moment. I'm going to go. back to a couple of the thoughts that we've already put down here. What we have been doing is we've been enumerating what I would call your automatic thoughts. Now, because you had four feelings that had a rating of 10, another four that had a rating of eight, right? We're working with eight feelings that are quite prominent. So even if it feels like this column is taking a long time, or you might feel Sometimes people feel a bit frustrated because they're not sure where it's going. That's completely normal because we're working with a number of emotions. And with those emotions, we've got a lot of thoughts. So now it's my job to ask you some follow-up questions. I want to distill these thoughts into something that's a bit more basic or something that's helping to drive a lot of the difficult feelings. When you say, I allowed myself to get into the situation despite my better judgment, like if I were to ask you, what does that mean? Is that, again, about you not being attuned, as attuned as you thought? Yeah. It is. It is about that. It's also about not trusting my instinct. Okay. So, and... Your instinct. Now, this is tricky because your instinct was about physical attraction, was it not? Or was your instinct, was the red flag that I'm not physically attracted to him so I shouldn't go further? Or was your instinct that he fetishizes brown men so I shouldn't take it, I shouldn't pursue it? It's both of those. I know both of those things. Okay. And when you didn't listen to those things, what is it? There's a reason you did it. You know, what were you, why did you want to put them aside? You were hoping that what would happen? So the reason I put them aside is because the banter, the conversation, the chemistry and the spark were all there. And so I thought, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. And so, so what if, his previous partner was, was Brown, you know, and if that's his, his thing, then that's his thing. But this is like a really nice guy that I'm having a great time with. Surely he deserves to have a chance or he deserves to, to be, to be part of my experience.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So he deserves to have a chance. And you started building up an image in your mind about what your future could be like together. Tell me just a little bit about that. Where did you picture yourself? Like grocery shopping together, more dates, having a home together. How far did your mind go? So a life together, a life as in... committed relationship where which comes with all the accoutrements of what a committed relationship is like weekends away and being part of each other's social circles and um cohabiting or if not cohabiting staying over at each other's place on a weekend those kinds of things So I thought we'd have a life together. Commitment, trips, what my friend Alanis Morissette calls flavors of entanglement. You romanticized that, right? And when you were ghosted, you realized that that's not going to happen. And if that isn't going to happen with this person who is so like, they're throwing themselves at you. What does this mean to you? Or how did you try to make sense of that? Does that when you started to think I'll never find happiness? No. So I wouldn't say that I'd never find happiness. It's just that- I'm not saying you believe that. I'm saying, is that where your mind went? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It is. Because your pragmatic side and your resilient side is quite strong and that's good, but that acts as a barrier to getting some of these other thoughts. Because to say- that I'll never find happiness. And to admit that that went through your mind might make you feel a bit exposed or embarrassed, right? Because you're this pragmatic, resilient person. How could you think that? Yeah. Okay. And that is true. Yeah. So when I look at your thoughts. These are the automatic thoughts that are connected to the feelings. I allowed myself to get into the situation despite my better judgment. Well, what does this mean or say about me? I'm not as attuned to myself and people dynamics as I thought. The other thought is I fulfilled his fetish for brown men and it backfired. I ignored the red flags. So part of this is like he deserves a chance and we can have a life together. And if we go into that a bit deeper, it's not about him deserving a chance. It's about I thought we'd have a life together. Commitment trips, the flavors of entanglement, and the consequence is I'll never find happiness. There's this thing about not wanting to be at the mercy of other people's likes, but I'm not seeing that as, that's part of the puzzle, but not particularly, it's kind of a standalone, I think, unless it's part of the deception. So I'll ask you here, when you accept or lean into people's praise and affirmation, is there a negative consequence of that? Do you feel like you've been weakened by that in some way? Yeah, I would say weakened. I mean, that's a great way in which you've described it. But it's like I am placing my... happiness, my contentment, and my fulfillment of who I am in the hands of others. That's what that's about. And so I would never want to allow someone else to control my level of joy and happiness and fulfillment through their validation. especially if it's random strangers or someone that's fleeting. Well, this person maybe feels random or fleeting in retrospect, but at the time he didn't, right? In your mind's eye, you had built a life with him. And I think this is a hard balance where how do you not place your contentment in someone else's hands? How can you be completely self reliant? If your end game, as you say, is around relationships? So one of your thoughts like as we distill this is that i've been weakened in some way by placing contentment in someone else's hands there's also this imagery and memory around the fat kid and people's responses to weight loss i'm going to remove that only because that was helpful to get our mind going but the thought there was my body isn't thin enough or good enough for gay culture And what does this mean? What does this say? What does this tell us? That maybe this guy lied to me about being into my body. And if my body isn't good enough, then there's going to be fewer opportunities for the spark with other gay men. And again, we circle back to I'll never find happiness. And from what you've told me, when someone else thinks you're not brown enough or not connected enough to your culture, it doesn't really bother you. So this Like this guy might've thought that and you're like, whatever, who cares? So my question to you, Joash, is which of these thoughts would you identify as your hot thought? Meaning the one that is most salient, the one that's most prominent, that's driving a lot of the difficult feelings, whether they are confused, rejected or deceived, infuriated or sad or despair? You're likely going to pick one of the ones that has an arrow next to it, because those are the ones that I've distilled a bit, but not necessarily. So what stands out to you? Take a moment. In the context of ghosting, being ghosted by him. On that, yes, on the Wednesday after date two, when you discover the radio silence, you feel deceived, rejected, confused, determined, infuriated, angry, despair, and sad. Yeah. I'll never find happiness. Yeah. You know? And then that really is... Because I go back to the thought that I'm going to die alone on my couch and no one's going to find me for weeks on end. Well, look, I've seen your couch and it's a very good couch. And I know that doesn't bring you any comfort in this moment. Because we enjoy couches when we're alive, of course. So look, one of... your automatic thoughts here and your hot thought is I'll never find happiness. Now, we're going to go through a short process of evaluating this thought. What is some evidence you have in your dating and relationship life that supports the idea that you'll never find happiness? Because it comes from somewhere. Say that again. I've been dating... I've been dating for three and a half years and I've not been able to have something sustained beyond two, maybe three dates. And when I have had it beyond three dates, it was highly dysfunctional and I knew it immediately. And so I curtailed it as soon as I could. But yeah, a lot of that is based on my current experience that I've been single for... period of time and there has been no tangible indication while other people have been single for far less time than I have and they have went on to merely find their version of happiness so you kind of resign yourself to maybe it's not gonna happen for me so when you see other people who have found significant relationships with a shorter interval in between is there somebody you're thinking about in particular like you could just say my friend with this initial yeah so yeah so um a friend and also you know my ex went on to have two significant relationships after me and um it's like what the hell's wrong with me i thought i was a decent person i I'm kind of cute, but clearly not measuring up to what people, I don't know. So yeah, that's where my mind goes. Look, I'm going to come back to the automatic thoughts, actually, because you said something right now that made me think that perhaps I'll never find happiness is a belief you have, or it's a scary belief you have, if we were to add to that, if you were to say, I'll never find happiness because, how would you finish that sentence? Because I... don't meet the expectations of what people want in a relationship. And what do they want that you don't have or that you think you don't have? Someone who is more masculine, because I'm the furthest away from that. Someone who is... has a more perfect body because I'm, again, furthest away from that. Someone who is... Okay. So when you say this idea of the perfect body, is this like the Adonis physique you're talking about? Like the broad shoulders, small waist, big butt? Okay. So look, I think... we've added a bit of meat to this automatic thought here. So I'll never find happiness because I'm not masculine enough and don't have the Adonis physique. Okay. How does it feel for you to have that in bold letters in front of you? I kind of noticed your affect and your, your tone shift a little bit. What were the, how are you feeling as we identify that more specifically? You know, the thing is, it is who I am. And so if someone doesn't accept that, it's not going to change. That's not what I'm asking. Joash, you're protecting yourself and I appreciate that. I'm not going to ask you to comment on it further. Rather, what I will say is I noticed a shift in just how you were speaking when we put this out there. So all that to say is that it hits a difficult and vulnerable space for you. We know that if somebody else isn't into you, of course, they're the ones missing out. We know that. That's not the immediate thing that goes through your mind. That's not what makes up the despair and sadness. Okay. Let's go back to evidence that supports this hot thought that you'll never find happiness because you're not masculine enough or don't have the Adonis physique. Where else do you get evidence that supports that? So your friend and your ex, are they more masculine? Do they have that physique? They do. Which one? Are they both more masculine? Oh, yeah. Both of them are, yeah. And they both have a similar physique? They both do. What does that look like? What are we talking about? Muscles? Or abs? Or all of these things? Yeah. I mean, if you had to look up a picture of Adana's physique, both of them are that those images oh okay ah okay um okay so your friend and your ex they've had significant relationships with smaller intervals um you've been single for three and a half years it's been difficult to go beyond date two or three and I, you know, both your friend and your ex, they're more masculine than you and they are, they've got this muscular physique. So I see how that, I see how this comes to shape the belief. Is there any other evidence? Like, for example, has someone told you that they would date you if you were more masculine or had a different physique? I wouldn't say they've said it directly, but you hear the nuances in the language. Give me an example. So someone in relation to you said, oh, I'm not really into camp men. Or, you know, you're cute, but you're just... to femme or whatever the case is. Oh, people have said that to you. So they'll say you're too femme or too camp. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00:

Ah,

SPEAKER_01:

okay. Okay. Let's go to the other column. Now, this one is a bit harder, but just as important. So what is evidence you have that doesn't support this idea that you'll never find happiness because you're not masculine enough or don't have the Adonis physique. So some evidence from your life that happiness is possible and that people like your masculinity is enough or your physique is enough. Yeah. I was in a relationship for 13 years with someone who loved me, whom I loved. And so that is the evidence that supports that, that I've had before and that I will have it again. Okay. And he was an Adonis, so to speak. So I just want to put that in there. And yeah, Have you been on dates where people appreciated your, your, your feminist or your campiness or where people did? Tell me, give me, tell me a specific time. Are there many times or was it a few specific people? It's been many times, you know, because I, So the funny thing is I like camp men. I find camp men attractive. Well, yeah. Yeah, I don't like hyper-masculine men. I just think they're so boring. So I've been with guys who are camp, and they appreciate my campness. So a specific example, yeah, I was dating someone who– loved yeah we again it was just like a one or two dates that we went on who thought that my sense of style was really interesting and was fun and so he liked that about me and my my sense of style is anything but heteronormative and the same person was also very much in love with my body You know, everything about my body. And so he validated me on many levels. And so this is, you've been with a couple of guys then, I think, from what I've heard, that are really in love with your body. Including the guy who ghosted you, right? Including the fucking guy who ghosted me. Okay. Now, Take a deep breath with me. We're going to move over to the next column, which is the alternative thought. Now, alternative thoughts are not positive affirmations. A positive affirmation would be everything happens for a reason. One day I'll meet the person of my dreams. I don't subscribe to that because I don't think that It speaks to your experience and what you're talking about here. Alternative thoughts are gonna be alternatives to what we have in bold here that says I'll never find happiness because I'm not masculine enough and I don't have the Adonis physique. So given that we've gone through the evidence for and against, what might an alternative thought be? Something that's more accurate and a bit more helpful. Is that I will continue to have a very adventurous and fun dating life. Okay. And is there happiness in that? There is happiness in that, yes. But it's fleeting happiness. And it's situational happiness.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And so, okay, situational and fleeting. What if I call that short periods of happiness? So instead of saying I will, I'm going to say I can have short periods of happiness. Would you say, and that could be okay? Or are you not ready to say that? No. It is okay because so, you know, again, going back to how I'd like to frame things, it's like I have had a pretty fun time the past three and a half years. So it's not like I'm sitting here depressed, but, you know, while the outcome is that I would like a relationship, I've had some really fun experiences that have given me short periods of happiness. It's just that beyond those moments, A couple of interactions. I would really like to get beyond that. Okay. And so, yeah. So when people ghost me, I should remind myself that, well, how would you finish that sentence? That I need to kiss a thousand toads before I find a prince. Yes. That, okay. And because that is about, not about what you're lacking, it's about the process.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Okay. When people ghost me, I should remind myself that it's not about something I'm lacking, but rather the process. Kiss a thousand tones. You also said that you really want to get past date two and three. And when that doesn't happen and you're ghosted after date two or three, What's a helpful thing to remind yourself of or to tell yourself? If I don't get past date two or three, then I'm also part of the culture. And I don't think this is something we spoke about in the session. But we're part of this culture where you're a face in a sea of faces. You're a face in a gallery of faces. And so very often we become disposable when you're in that gallery of faces because you simply move on to the next. And so... I'm very much aware of that. And as I said, we didn't speak about that in this session, but I'm also aware of how that dating culture plays out in real life. Okay. So if I don't get past date two or three, it's often because of the culture of being disposable in a sea of options. Rahim, hold on for me. I've got someone at my door. Is that okay? No problem. Totally okay. Go ahead. All right. So here are our alternative thoughts. I will continue to have an adventurous dating life. I can have short periods of happiness. When people ghost me, it's not about something I'm lacking, but rather the process. If I don't get past date two or three, it's often because of the culture of being disposable in a sea of options. Now, you've also been comparing yourself to your ex and your friend. So I think you've got to put something in your alternative thought that captures that. So while other people have more relationships, I don't know. I don't know what the alternative thought is here. Help me out. So the alternative thought is that there's someone for everyone. As much as people aspire to the ideal of masculine, Adonis-like bodies, there's other people who embrace differences. And so I may not be the benchmark, But not everyone likes vanilla. Yes, totally. So there are many guys who embrace people like me. Okay. Are there any other alternative thoughts that you think would be helpful to add there?

SPEAKER_00:

that

SPEAKER_01:

life as a single person can be just as fulfilling. So life as a single person can be fulfilling. feeling. It's a tricky one, right? Because you don't want to place your contentment in someone else's hands, which says I can satisfy all my needs, but you've also got the fantasy that what, you know, with these flavors of entanglement. So I think one of the thoughts here, alternative thoughts is it's hard to to open up to the idea of another person when I'm often working on being self-reliant. This is true. So that doesn't have to be an alternative thought, but I think that might even have been your initial automatic thought, you know, but I just thought I'd put it in there so you have it when we're done. I'm just going to make this a bit smaller so it all fits on one page. All right. Joash, as you... I'm going to ask that you read through these alternative thoughts and meditate on them a little bit. And by meditate, I just mean, which one do you think brings you most comfort? Or do you believe in the most when you think about your situation on that Wednesday after date two? So having gone through this exercise, if I was in that situation again, how would I rank these? Well, you don't have to rank each one. I want you to see if you can pick one that you, it's an alternative thought you actually believe in and that would bring you the most comfort. So for example, you, you, you, you mentioned you, It was kind of in passing, you said, you know, I think that there's someone for everyone. But I also know that you don't completely think that because you also said that you can live a fulfilling life as a single person. So this is about which thought brings you most comfort in your life and which thought you believe in most. So is it, I will continue to have an adventurous dating life? I can have short periods of happiness. Life as a single person can be fulfilling too. When people ghost me, it's not about something I'm lacking, but rather the process. If I don't get past date two or three, it's because of the culture of being disposable in a sea of options. There are many guys who do embrace guys like me. It's hard to open up to the idea of another person when I'm often working on being self-reliant. It's the first one. I'll continue having an adventurous dating life. That's the predominant alternative thought. And does that bring you, when you're feeling, when you've been ghosted, does that bring you comfort? Oh yeah. It does. So why is that? Because if you have an adventurous dating life, what does that mean? Or what does that say about you? Is that there's hope. And that while this has been hard, it's been painful, and it's not the outcome I wanted, I'll figure it out again. And I'm going to try it again. And I'm going to allow myself to be in a situation where I could be ghosted once more. But I'll always allow myself to... be vulnerable, I'll always put myself out there in the hope of, in the search of something more fulfilling or something not even more fulfilling because I have a fulfilled life right now. Something that is going to bring a new dimension to my life. And okay, so I will continue to have an adventurous dating life. And that's the exciting dimension of your relationship life. Is that right? That's right. And are you saying a dating life, there's hope that it will eventually turn into something long-term? Or are you saying that whether I continue to be single or date somebody long-term, I could be happy with both? I'm just trying to figure out what you're reminding yourself here. That it is both. That... While I do want a relationship, I still really enjoy the whole dating culture that I'm in right now. And it's something that gives me fun experiences, fun stories, but also exposes me to some really great people. In fact, people who've become some of my closest friends. So these dating experiences have not resulted in naught. They have given me other avenues of deep fulfillment and joy. And if it doesn't work out with someone, it will work out eventually. And if it doesn't work out in the way that I want to in terms of a relationship, it's going to add different textures to my life. Mm-hmm. And... Is there something you want to tell yourself about being deceived and rejected that is also more comforting? I don't think there's anything comforting about being deceived. But I think the comforting thing about being rejected is that... you're never going to please 100% of people 100% of time. And I'm okay with that.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So based on what we've just said, so, you know, there's, I will continue to have an adventurous dating life. That is true. You believe in that. I enumerated that a bit because I think that that in a context when somebody is like grieving and feeling very sad, that might be hard to conjure up. More likely is this following statement. Tell me what you think about this. I can want a long-term relationship and continue to enjoy dating life. Dating also teaches me new things and it's fair to be upset about feeling deceived. Does that, does that speak to you? Does that capture what you've just been saying? Okay. I'm going to put that in bold. Now, when you read that, that alternative thought, I want you to think about, conjure up the feeling of being ghosted. We've all been there, right? It's painful. Tell yourself, okay. I want a long term relationship and I continue to enjoy dating life. Dating teaches me new things. And it's fair to be upset right now about being deceived. Does the intensity of being deceived? How would you rate it? We're going back to your original feelings, and we're rating them now we're re rating them. So don't look at what you rated them before. In this moment, when you meditate on the alternative thought, how do you rate the intensity of these feelings? So deceived is still high up there because that's still a 10. Uh-huh, yeah. Good. How about rejected? I'm okay with being rejected. So I would put that as being a five or a six. Okay. Or rather a four or a five, yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I would say that's still high. So eight, because again, the notion of ghosting is that you're not given the opportunity to understand the context. Absolutely. And how determined do you feel? Oh, still a 10, honey. And infuriated? Um... Probably say maybe about a seven. Okay. And anger? At yourself? Also about a seven. Okay. Because again, the context of ghosting is you just don't know why. Despair? Yeah, like four. Okay. And sadness? Also four. Okay. Vengefulness? I'll show him. you're probably less vengeful because again going back to one of the points lower down on the alternative thoughts list we know that this is part of our culture so i would say maybe a five yes and your level of frustration This is still high for me, you know, because being ghosted is a frustrating thing, especially when there's been positive indicators. So I'd still put this at about a six or a seven. How about feeling used? About four. Unworthy. I would put that at four as well. Inadequate. Four. And embarrassed. I would put that at three. All right. Are there any new feelings that are emerging for you? Hopeful. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

anything else? I'm trying to say adventurous. I don't know if you can say appealing. but a sense of wonder. I'll put down adventurous. Is that okay for sense of wonder? I also wonder if you feel a bit... Oh, okay. Yeah. Hopeful, optimistic. That's good. I wonder if you... are feeling a bit of like when the anger goes down or dials down a bit. And I know you rated it similarly, but when it dials down a bit, sometimes there's more room for grief and sadness. So I'm a bit surprised that your sadness rating went down. I kind of suspected that your anger rating would go down and your sadness rating would go up. because you had built a life in your mind with this person. So I wonder if the feeling here is either like mourning and grief or it's self-compassion, right? Because there's a loss, but there's also self-compassion for having the dream. Yeah, so I tend to be a realist optimist And so I think I'm always going to find, firstly, the hope of any situation. And so in that situation, the hope was there's something that can be built here. And when I look at the alternative thought, the hope then comes in when there's, I could recreate this or not necessarily recreate, but I can find this with someone who is worthy of me and whom I'm worthy of too. And so that's why the sadness has diminished because I see that I'm able to remain hopeful. Yes. And you said something very important here. So, you know, when somebody ghosts you, it makes you feel unworthy, but you're somebody who has said, I would prefer a conversation about the ending because I don't mind being rejected, right? So to me, it sounds like you might be feeling a bit righteous in your integrity or you might actually be feeling worthy. You're actually, it's not about how unworthy do I feel, but there's a sense of like worthiness and confidence in your integrity. How would you rate, if I said like, How worthy do you feel next to this person who short-sightedly ghosted you? You know, I know I'm worthy of many things. So I would rate my worthiness high. I would put it as a nine or a 10 even. Okay. And then is there a kind of righteousness? I would say so. I would say that, you know, I do feel that. Okay. All right. I'm going to leave it there because we were adding new feelings and that's good. So, you know, by the time we get to the end of a thought record, right. Adding new feelings can be helpful because it means that, you know, we've gone from, the difficulty of identifying basic emotions in a situation and expanded, expanding to creating space for so many more. So you began by saying, you know, you were deceived, rejected, confused, determined, infuriated, angry, despair, sadness. You had vengefulness, frustration, feeling used, unworthy, inadequate, and embarrassed in that order. And now we've moved to them a bit differently in terms of, um, similarity right so give me one second here so we've got deceived and rejected and rejected's gone from 10 to a 5 deceived has stayed the same but that's fine because in your alternative thought you've said that it's fair to be upset about feeling deceived or about being deceived um your level of determination is good but your resentment and your vengefulness has gone down. You've discovered not just that you're not unworthy, but that you are worthy. You're optimistic, adventurous, hopeful, and you've got a bit of righteousness, which is healthy. You're infuriated, frustrated, angry, confused at a similar level that you were before, but your sense of feeling used has gone down. Your sense of being confused has gone down a bit because remember in the process of the alternative thoughts, you've also made, you've changed the attributions. You've said it has something to do with our culture. It has something to do with the grinder grid, all of this. Yeah. And then your feelings of despair, sadness, and unworthiness went down quite a bit and inadequate and embarrassed went down just a touch. Just tell me, what are some of your overall reflections? What have you gained? What does it feel like to go through this process? So this has articulated things that I've felt, but not paid attention to. I mean, I've not introspected at this level to know that I still have difficulties with my body and how that manifests itself in the relationships, dating situations that I find myself in and how that then impacts the outcomes that I'm having. Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so that is what this has really brought to light. And I mean, I've known that subconsciously, but I've not known that in this way where it gives me some kind of searchlight to make a tangible change. Yeah. And you know what really stood out to me, Joash? Like it's actually, it's striking and mind-blowing to some degree that in your mind, you've got this formula. You have this core belief that, that people spark with physical attraction and then they build something deeper. And forgive me if this is an overstep or I've gone too far, but it seems to me like you've built a lot of your gym routine and emphasis on gym around being able to provide the initial physical attraction so that something deeper can be built. But You discovered with this person, Ellie, that there wasn't a physical spark to begin with and the other things could be built. So I think there's a larger takeaway here that the formula might be different for different people, right? So it's not always about the physical spark first and then something else. I think we maybe, Ellie has taught us Right. You said people teach you things. I think Ellie has taught us that the formula can be disrupted or altered sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Oh, great. Joash, I'm going to thank you for being a guest on the CBT Dive. I think your insights are going to be quite helpful for other listeners. And I just want to appreciate, you know, you being here and being vulnerable. Maybe we'll see you again. But thank you for going through this process. Take care. Thank you, Rahim. Bye.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for tuning in to the CBT Dive. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at thecbtdive.ca. You can also listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts. To follow Rahim on social media, check out ladyativan.com. See you soon.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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