The CBT Dive

When you're trying to disrupt the trauma of poverty

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Season 2 • Episode 1

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In this episode, host Rahim Thawer talks to Kae about the recurring feelings of stress around when rent is due. The conversation explores Kae's thoughts and emotions related to financial struggles, self-criticism, and worries about falling back into unhealthy habits. Rahim and Kae also cover topics such as maintaining psychological safety, rationalizing thoughts, and the fear of not being able to escape past trauma and financial difficulties.

With the use of the “Thought Record,” Rahim talks Kae through identifying the feelings, behaviours, and automatic thoughts that come up for Kae on the morning she has to pay her bills. Together they hone in on a hot thought, which is an automatic thought that occurs in combination with a change in emotion or mood. Since our hot thoughts can be clouded by our emotional state, they are not always the most factual. To determine if Kae’s hot thought is an accurate representation of the moment, Rahim and Kae try to find evidence to support and contradict her hot thought. Since there was evidence to contradict Kae’s hot thought, they identify a more balanced thought that could be supported by the evidence. 

Takeaways

  • Maintaining psychological safety is important in therapy to ensure a feeling of connection and safety.
  • Identifying and evaluating difficult thoughts can help in understanding and managing challenging emotions.
  • Financial struggles can trigger feelings of defeat, self-criticism, and worry.
  • The fear of regressing into unhealthy habits and past trauma can impact one's mental and emotional well-being.
  • Recognizing and addressing the underlying beliefs and thoughts related to financial struggles can be helpful in developing healthier coping strategies.

ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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SPEAKER_00:

Well, here we are. Welcome to the CBT Dive. This is the podcast that demystifies cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawar. In each episode, I walk a guest through applying CBT skills to real world situations. Hi, Kay. Hi. Welcome to the CBT Dive. I'd like to introduce you to our listeners. So Kay is somebody I met earlier in 2023 and we met in northern ontario and she does some really cool work and i know from our our time together that she loves live music art she is social justice oriented and really is passionate about harm reduction and um saving lives through advocacy around drug policy changes that have been driving the overdose epidemic. Today, we're going to examine some of your thoughts related to a situation that's bringing up difficult feelings. One of our goals is to maintain psychological safety, and we do that by identifying one thing that we can work on, right? Because there's so many things that bring up difficult feelings for us. And so to be able to zone in on one challenge and really examine it can be very useful. All right. So Kay, I'm going to share my screen and we're going to jump into a thought record. The situation you had identified was it's when rent is due, right? So beginning of of the month and rent is due and this most recent month what time of day did it hit you like was it the realization where maybe you were full of dread or anxiety or whatever the feeling was

SPEAKER_01:

so generally speaking on payday before i even get out of bed I kind of like go into my banking and I pay what needs to get paid and I put money where it needs to go. And then I know what I have left to get through the next two weeks. I had very little money in my bank account right before my birthday weekend, right before, right for the beginning of December, where there's a lot of events happening. gift purchasing is kind of always on the mind and stuff like that. So it was a very early start to a payday, just kind of having to sit with where I was at.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. The situation I've got up here is more refined. It says, I woke up on the first and saw my paycheck come into my debit account, but by 7.30 a.m. also paid rent and it was very little left. And not to mention, just ahead of your birthday weekend.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

Kate, how were you feeling?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I just, I felt defeated and just kind of tired and frustrated with myself. I have a history of like financial struggles and like growing up in poverty. And then I put a lot of work in and I got to a very comfortable place and then old habits die hard, I guess, or, or situations come and yeah, if I don't, didn't plan appropriately.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So yeah. Under your situation, I just added a note that says context. Grew up in poverty and there's a history of financial challenges. The feelings I heard were defeated, tired, frustrated. I'm thinking when you said frustrated at yourself, another feeling there is self-critical, if I'm not mistaken?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Was there any sentiment or satisfaction? Like you had enough money to pay your rent, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, especially because I was able to afford to pay my rent and put money on my credit cards and put money where it needed to go so that I felt financially responsible. It's like, okay, the reason why I'm broke right now is because I am being financially responsible. So there is a slight sense of accomplishment in there and a little bit of comfort that it's like, okay, I have a place to live and I... you know, don't need to worry about that for the next 30 days. But then also looking at my bank account, it's like, just don't need to get groceries. So there's that.

SPEAKER_00:

So that feeling would be worry. Yes. Okay. I've got defeated, tired, frustrated, self-critical, worried. And then I've got accomplish and comfort.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But I know those are in smaller quantities. If you had to rate these five feelings on a scale of one to ten, one being not intense, ten being the most intense, how would you rate each one? So let's start with defeated. An eight. And what about tired? Like a seven. Frustrated? Eight. Self-critical?

SPEAKER_01:

Eight. Worried? Probably like even a seven. How about accomplished? I'd put that at like a six because I recognized it in the moment that it was there. You recognize it?

SPEAKER_00:

Did you feel it?

SPEAKER_01:

No, actually. I'd put it like a five.

SPEAKER_00:

And to that end, 7.30 a.m., there's a hint of comfort, but not very much, right? So what is your comfort level rating?

SPEAKER_01:

I was at least... all of these feelings in a comfortable location. So I'll even, I'll give that a seven.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And that's nice, right? That's really important. What did you do when you were feeling defeated, tired, frustrated, self-critical and worried? What was your immediate action? Was it to sleep in longer? Did you call in sick? Did you make to-do lists? What was your go-to behavior

SPEAKER_01:

when I was done everything I just like I put my phone down and I just kind of laid in bed for a few more minutes and then I just took a deep breath and I got ready for work and I went to work and I had a nail appointment it's nothing like investing in that when I am tight on funds but I I went that was my

SPEAKER_00:

self-care for my birthday I think that's great So the two things I've got down here is laid in bed for an extra few minutes and went to work and kept my nail appointment, which I think is fabulous. You did say something before that, which was I did all the things. So before you laid in bed for an extra few minutes, was that you settling bills on your phone? Yes. Okay. I'm going to say his behavior settled all the bills kind of immediately. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm going to note that down. Same as every payday. Settle all the bills immediately through my phone. Same as every payday. I think the behavior is as important as the thoughts, you know, because to me, it's showing when I just look at the behavior, I'm thinking this person, their nervous system was engaged and they were stressed out. They did something very responsible so that they could relax. They allowed themselves to relax. And then they thought about what they want their day in their life to look like. And they said, you know, I need to continue. The show must go on in a way as scheduled. So earlier that day at 730, when you were feeling defeated, tired, frustrated, self-critical and worried, it might be while you're paying the bills right before you pay the bills. What were you thinking? What are some of the thoughts that went on in your mind?

SPEAKER_01:

I was just thinking about just like all the decisions that kind of like led to where all the, like all this money is going, like what I'm paying off and just kind of that. I feel like, I feel like I'm constantly like rationalizing as I'm paying things. It's like, yep. Okay. This has to go here because of the, I did like, I chose to do this and this is this. And I don't know if that's a way I'm self-talking myself to kind of alleviate some of that, Give

SPEAKER_00:

me an example of the rationalizing thought. So I'm paying off things that are essential or that I needed. You

SPEAKER_01:

know, I'm dropping, I'm putting$300 on this credit card because I bought a couch and I made a plan on paying it off. I made that decision. I knew this was going to happen. I budgeted for this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And the rationalizing is very good, but I would actually... put that in the section in the far right that says alternative thought, because what you're doing is you're saying things that counteract or reduce the intensity of the difficult feeling. And that is a very good skill. Before you do that, I think we need to figure out what the difficult thoughts are. So before you say, you know, I had to buy this. And paying it off is important when you feel defeated. I imagine there's another thought there. It might even be a bit subconscious. So if you had to connect a thought to being defeated, what would that thought be?

SPEAKER_01:

It's like I'm in a position where my income is higher than it's ever been. And I, you know, I've had to pay rent and have had these bills before and felt the same struggle making less. So I think I just feel defeated because it's like, I should be able to live within my means because my means are more now than they like one more now than they used to be. And they're not so.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So my income is higher. So I shouldn't be in the same place as earlier in my life.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm curious about these initial thoughts, right? And sometimes it's hard to spend some time with them and hold them. So this first one, you're feeling defeated because my income is higher, so I shouldn't be in the same place as earlier in my life. Now, when you feel self-critical and frustrated, is it the same thought or is it another thought?

SPEAKER_01:

That I have impulse issues and I am overspending. You know, it's kind of like, this is my own fault.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So one is I have impulse issues. I might have impulse issues that lead to overspending.

SPEAKER_01:

Like it's the consequences of my own actions. It's just like present to me is very annoyed of past me. It's

SPEAKER_00:

like in that moment. And when you feel worried, what thought is connected to that? So you might say I'm worried about, or I'm worried because...

SPEAKER_01:

I'm worried about other expenses that'll come up in the next two weeks before my next paycheck and how I'm going to manage to pay those off or pay for things. You know, I'm worried about groceries or not having enough of my own money to pay for things.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so there will be more expenses coming up between now and the next paycheck and I might not have enough money to last for groceries. Is that in particular, like, do you think you might not have enough for food?

SPEAKER_01:

I would have enough for food, like for my normal, like normal groceries, no. But would I have enough to like survive? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I'm looking just for clarification about where we're really at, right? So I've just rephrased the thought to say, I might not have enough money to last for my quote unquote normal groceries. And that is fair, right? I'll tell you, Kay, I went to Farm Boy the other day, and that place is so expensive. But they have these really great kimchi pancakes, and you get two of them, and it's like$7. It's so bananas. It's so much money. And it's okay if there's not enough in my account to be able to buy those. I'll survive. But it also comes with feelings, right, if I– really want that then it signifies something to me right so if you don't have enough for your normal groceries and you have just enough to survive my question to you is what does that signify what does that mean to you

SPEAKER_01:

it signifies that i may fall into like other bad habits specifically eating habits if i cannot afford like protein powder i've been using or um foods to help make healthier meals. Yeah, I think I'm just afraid to fall even deeper into habits I had when I was living more in poverty.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And when you were living more in poverty, it sounds like your relationship to food then and now has been... Something you've been grappling with. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. I would, I do have like behavioral eating tendencies.

SPEAKER_00:

Does that mean like self-soothing, like using food to soothe yourself when you feel stressed out?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, just food to cope, whether that's like stress or anger or sadness or celebrating, like just... just in unhealthy ways where I'm not being kind to my body.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And if you didn't have enough money for normal groceries, meaning nutritional things, you might buy more survival food, convenience food, or you might say, you know, fuck it, I'm just going to get junk food. And what would the consequence of that be? So you fall into these poor eating habits. What does that then mean for you over the next few weeks or months?

SPEAKER_01:

It's fear of like not feeling great physically, being groggy, bloated, like just not feeling well if I'm eating high processed foods. Yeah. Which is like the first thing, right? If I don't feel great, I don't want to move around. And then there's like, weight gain involved in that as well and and i'm trying to to not worry about numbers or to to not worry about like my my weight um just about my health

SPEAKER_00:

so you're saying if i don't have enough money i can't buy nutritional food and then you get to it sounds also it's not just about the exact money it's also a headspace you enter right you're like If I can only afford processed food, I can't maintain a kind of healthiness that I want. And in that headspace, you're saying I feel physically unwell in my body, but also it affects my body image. It affects how I see myself. Is that right? Yes. Okay. And now this might feel like a hard question, but when you don't feel good about your body, what tends to happen? Do you disengage from people? Do you worry that you'll lose people? I think there's another kind of fear in there. I

SPEAKER_01:

think it's just like my own body dysmorphia and like that coming up. It's more, yeah, it's really just more like I've come so far. I don't want to...

SPEAKER_00:

Go

SPEAKER_01:

back. Get back. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So part of that fear here is... I'll regress in my progress around... I'm trying to figure out what this is called. Is this self-love? Is this healthier lifestyle choices? Fear of falling back into unhealthy, damaging habits. Okay, so I'll regress. I'll fall back into unhealthy and damaging... habits. Now, you'll notice I put these little arrows underneath the original thought. I might not have enough money to last for my normal groceries. And that's because I asked follow up questions to help understand a bit more of the core of those thoughts. I'm going to do the same thing for some of the other thoughts that you shared. My hope is for us to understand better the range of things that you experience when you feel defeated, tired, frustrated, self-critical, and worried, and particularly around money, right? So the first thing that you had said was my income is higher, so I shouldn't be in the same place as earlier in my life. When in your life are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01:

About three years ago, I was... not making that much money and not doing well in a

SPEAKER_00:

lot of areas of my life. So when, when you say to yourself, my income is higher now, so I shouldn't be in the same place as I was three years ago. And I'm saying, let's say you hadn't made much progress in three years. What would that say about you? I

SPEAKER_01:

just like irresponsible.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I am irresponsible. That sounds like a clear kind of self-criticism, doesn't it? And there's a lot of feelings coming up for you. And I wonder if you want to, what are the, do you want to share? Is there like an image or a thought that's associated with some of the feelings?

SPEAKER_01:

So it's really just a lot of feelings. I don't know if shame is even the word, but like maybe just things I did not process through that difficult time, you know, which was a consequence of like me being irresponsible and like me being in a fight or flight kind of state for a while.

SPEAKER_00:

When you say fight or flight response, you're talking about... being in survival mode and responding to something traumatic or very activating in your environment. And I wonder if here there's a thought about like when you see that, oh, I have more income and I've spent it all that there's a fear or a thought that I'll never escape my trauma or I'll never be I'll never be able to make grounded decisions, something like that. Does that come up

SPEAKER_01:

for you? It does, yeah. It does feel like that, especially when it's... Yeah, I feel like I've been recognizing that a lot of my history was spent activated. And the more aware that I am, the more... aware I am of when I get activated now, and that's been happening more often. So

SPEAKER_00:

it seems to me like when you say, you know, this is the consequence of my own actions, it might have impulse issues that lead to overspending. You've kind of already told me that that might be somewhat factual. And so I'm just putting a note beside it, because when something is factual and It's not a thought that we want to mess with. And so when you say there will be more expenses coming up between now and the next paycheck, given that it's December, I'm also gonna say that's somewhat factual. So the things that are factual, I'm gonna not touch them because they are true. However, I think the things that are more useful for us to engage with are some of the things that you see in this top area and particularly some of the thoughts that have arrows beside them. So I'm going to read them and I want you to think about which is the most salient thought. Salient meaning the most prominent thought. And this would be your hot thought. This is the one that's most prominent and driving. a lot of the difficult feelings you had in the second column. So I'll read them and you tell me which one you want to pick. My income is higher now, so I shouldn't be in the same place as I was three years ago. I am still irresponsible. I might never escape my trauma history. I might not have enough money to last for my quote unquote normal groceries. I am susceptible to falling back into poor eating habits. I'll feel physically unwell in my body, and that will affect my body image. I'll regress. I'll fall back into unhealthy and damaging habits.

SPEAKER_01:

Escaping trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So you woke up on the morning of December 1st. You saw your paycheck come into your debit account. But by 7.30 a.m., you also paid your rent and other bills with interest. Very little left. You felt defeated, tired, frustrated, self-critical and worried. What did you do? Well, you're responsible. You settled all the bills immediately. But you had some difficult thoughts to contend with. And the hot thought that we're working with right now is a fear that I might never escape my trauma history. So... The next column over is evidence that supports this idea. So now we're evaluating your thought. And you've kind of already told me one piece of evidence that supports this idea that you'll never escape your trauma history, right? So that evidence is money problems have followed me even with more income. What other kind of evidence that you think about that suggests you might never escape your trauma history? And I think we're talking particularly with poverty, right?

SPEAKER_01:

With this one, yeah. I'd say there's more evidence in the sense that I have already declared bankruptcy three years ago, three, four years ago. And that was a very like good like turning point that i you know a lot of um growth happened so just just feeling like i went through all that and feeling kind of back there again is frustrating and it just it to me shows um just a recurrence of behavior um like despite like kind of doing the big thing, like declaring bankruptcy and doing all the work that that entails to be like back in that place of struggle a couple of years later, feels like evidence.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And between three or four years ago and now, have there been other events, incidences, experiences, that also made you feel like the financial stress and the impact of poverty is following you still present?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I'm seeing it happen to my mom right now as well. So that's frustrating.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I see financial difficulty that continues to follow my mom around. Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it's just like, you know, I identify these issues three plus years ago. Why am I still dealing with them? So like,

SPEAKER_00:

that's

SPEAKER_01:

frustrating.

SPEAKER_00:

So one of your pieces of evidence that supports the idea that you might not escape your trauma history with poverty is that I'm not currently where I'd like to be. Yes. Financially. And I think another piece of evidence is very clear that there isn't very much in your account at the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Now we're moving to the next column, which is evidence that does not support the hot thought. So this is evidence that suggests that you could escape your trauma history with poverty. It might not be escape, but it might be more like I'm able to put the history behind me, evidence that I've been able to grow, evidence that I've become more stable, things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

I may not have much in my checking account or my savings account, but I do have RSVs and like a healthy amount of them. So that's something that I don't think anyone in my family has or potentially probably will ever have. So it's... it's kind of a thing and it's so capitalist, but it's just like, well, I have this, so I'm not worth nothing. Like, and it's like, it's frustrating to think that, but it's, that's, it's helped me.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Let's not criticize yourself for having made plans that will then serve you. Right. You're wanting to escape. poverty so you can't you're going to have to work on criticizing or not criticizing yourself when you make steps toward doing that so you have registered retirement savings great yes what are other signs that suggest you could escape this trauma history with poverty for example you have a bigger credit history now Do you have a safer home now than you have in the past? Have you experienced more stability in the last three or four years than you had prior to that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I would say I have a stable home and a place to rest and a place to escape in. In the past, I would have coped with the stress through substances or through distractions. in general. I think there's the evidence would show it's like I am facing my challenges more head on now

SPEAKER_00:

than I used to. So I have a stable home, a place to rest and escape in. And I think there was a second piece there that says I choose rest and stability over substance use. Is that

SPEAKER_01:

accurate? Yeah, like over, you know, over escaping with you know, substances or just other distractions.

SPEAKER_00:

Ah, okay. So I choose to, I guess, refuel by leaning into rest and the stability I do have over escaping with substances. I wonder if you have one, maybe even two more pieces of evidence that support the idea that you could escape poverty or your history with poverty.

SPEAKER_01:

Like the steps I've made, like in terms of starting therapy again and just kind of recognizing that, you know, the financial struggles I have are not, like they don't feel good but it's like, I don't know what's that, like healthy debt or like healthy financial struggles. Like it's just kind of, it just feels like I'm in a tight spot, but that's because I'm being responsible. It's just kind of like-

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I like that, totally. So I'm moving us over to the next column. That's about an alternative or more balanced thought. And you said a beautiful thing. You said- I have healthy debt. I'm paying off things that are essential. Now, it's not just your rent that you paid, right? What are the other things you're paying off that are essential?

SPEAKER_01:

Credit card that I just got and put like a couch on and like bedding and just things for the home. I recently, my home situation changed. So my partner and I, now just live together where we before we're staying with my mom so we went from not paying rent at all to you know paying rent every month and that that happened with little notice it was a it was an opportunity that arised so we went from like not paying rent and then it was like okay in three weeks we we pay rent now like so it was and i had savings and but then we also had um plans so like things just depleted very quickly. Like my financial situation changed faster than I had time, than I felt like I had time to prepare for it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Okay. So I've got three alternative thoughts that I'm going to read to you that I've gleaned just from what you're saying. So I have healthy debt. I'm paying off things that are essential like couch and bedding. My expenses have changed suddenly and they're wasn't enough time to prepare for this. A hard period can be part of the bigger plan and anticipated, right? But it still feels hard when it shows up. I'm thinking about any other alternative or balanced thoughts you might have that would be helpful in this kind of situation. I

SPEAKER_01:

have a lot more, like I'm aware of a lot more resources than I used to be. And I've used them in terms of my struggle. What kinds of resources? Like using my benefits to actually get support or to help cope with

SPEAKER_00:

things and talk things out. And so it's not just that you had them and didn't access them. Now you have more knowledge of and access right to the resources like work benefits and these can help you in what way with long-term financial planning or with self-care which are you thinking or both

SPEAKER_01:

both really um the financial planning i i kind of had the moment where I'm like, I need to use that service. Like I do a financial planning support and I should use it or I want to use it. And then the other thing is like using my benefits to access therapy and to access things that help regulate my nervous system, like physio and massage therapy and just really trying to take care of myself. So it's,

SPEAKER_00:

yeah. Yes. I want you to look at the hot thought that was, I might never escape my trauma history with poverty. What's a direct alternative response or reframing of that statement? What's another way to say that that's not unrealistically hopeful? I,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah, growing from it is something that I'd really like to do and it's not something I've seen anyone do. in my family, so it's difficult.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I'm growing by working through my trauma and it's not something that's been modeled to me. All right. Okay. You've got a number of alternative thoughts here. I'd like you to pick one. that stands out to you that you also have the strongest belief in. So one that is not just, it sounds good, but you're like, yeah, that really helps. That makes me feel better because I believe it to be true. So I'll read them all from the bottom. I now have knowledge and access to more resources like work benefits that can help with long-term planning and self-care. The hard period. can be part of the bigger plan and anticipated, but it still feels hard when it shows up. My expenses have changed suddenly and there wasn't enough time to prepare for this. I have healthy debt. I'm paying off things that are essential. I'm growing by working through my trauma and it's not something that's been modeled to me. I might not escape my trauma history, but I can learn to live with it in a more manageable way growing from it.

SPEAKER_01:

The last one you said.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So what I'm going to do is list the feelings again, and I want you to not worry about how you rated them before. It just does not matter how you rated them before. When you say to yourself, I might not escape my trauma history, but I can learn to live with it in a more manageable way by growing from it. How would you rate defeated?

SPEAKER_01:

Like a

SPEAKER_00:

five.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What about tired?

SPEAKER_01:

Six.

SPEAKER_00:

Frustrated.

SPEAKER_01:

Five.

SPEAKER_00:

Self-critical. Four. Worried.

SPEAKER_01:

Like a five.

SPEAKER_00:

Accomplished.

SPEAKER_01:

Six.

SPEAKER_00:

Comfort.

SPEAKER_01:

So like a seven.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, goes up a notch. So Kay, here is your thought record. And I'd like for us to have a conversation just for a few minutes about some of your reflections. How was this process for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Pretty good. I think it was very necessary. Yeah. I mean, challenging, but still good, necessary.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Do you feel like processing in this way is good for you? Or does it leave out too much?

SPEAKER_01:

I like it. For me, my... I don't know if it's coming from ADHD, but I... I do like having things kind of mapped out. It does help me to stay on track. I do like the alternative thoughts because I find I do that a lot and it is nice to name them and to be able to see it written down as an alternative thought

SPEAKER_00:

is helpful. The only challenge I think is when we jump to the alternative thought too quickly and we're not giving ourselves a moment to say, What are the deep things that I'm feeling and processing here? You know, because those things, they're not easy. They're hard. They bring up shame, embarrassment, et cetera. So they're hard to talk about. They're hard to talk about. Okay, I want to thank you for your vulnerability, for your sharing today, and for talking about something that is so deeply personal. And I think... other people are going to benefit from hearing you talk it through this way. I know I did. And I was the therapist in this context. So thank you so much for being here. And I'm glad it was helpful. I'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01:

That's good. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's the CBT dive for today. Thank you for joining us as we demonstrate therapy skills for the real world. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on social media. The CBT Dive is intended for educational purposes only and not as a replacement for individual therapy. See you next time.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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