The CBT Dive

When capitalism turns you against yourself

• Season 2 • Episode 2

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Psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawer and Riz discuss Riz’s travel adventures and how they have led to unique stressors and insights into his relationship with money. Riz shares situations that have brought up difficult feelings, such as feeling cheated and disappointed when spending money on experiences that don't meet his expectations. 

Rahim helps Riz identify his automatic thoughts and behaviors that arise in these situations, including self-criticism and questioning his choices. Overall, this conversation explores the complex emotions and rumination surrounding money and personal experiences.

ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the CBT Dive. This is the podcast that demystifies cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawar, and each week I walk a guest through applying CBT skills to real-world situations. It's good to see you today. Riz has been traveling for 13 months with his partner, and the impetus of travel was... in reaction to or in response to his family of origin who has often had big dreams but hasn't had the opportunity to act on them. So through this journey, one of the things that's come up for you, Riz, has been about your relationship to money. So you've had some situations come up recently. I'm going to put them into a thought record and then I'm going to share my screen so that the viewers can see it. And what I'd like us to do is really think about zeroing in on a situation that's brought up some really difficult feelings for you around money. And prior to this recording, you have given me some insight into what that could look like. So a thought record is is something that's designed to help you look at a situation in a linear way. And we use thought records, not when we have a simple problem to solve, but rather when we suspect that there's unhelpful thought patterns at play. So the situation is I go to a restaurant and I eat something that I could have made better myself. and you feel cheated. So this feeling of cheated comes up.

SPEAKER_00:

In the context of long-term traveling, where part of the traveling involves, you know, to save money, you're not always eating out.

SPEAKER_02:

Part of what you're saying is jumping ahead. So I'm just going to make a note here that says, under automatic thoughts, that says saving money is part of... The travel plan. If I were to go to the next column, this is our feelings list. Okay. These are all the feelings that come up when you think about this situation of going to a restaurant, you eat something and you're like, oh, this is not great. I could have made this better at home. Right. So you're already saying one of the feelings you have is that you feel cheated. So in the feelings column, I'm going to write down the word cheated. What are the other feelings that are coming up for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Slight unjust for sure. Unhappiness, sadness as well. I become angry at myself and disappointed at myself that I wouldn't make a decision like this when I could have done it differently.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I really like that description because I got the other feeling words out of there. It sounded like... angry or anger was prominent. And that leads to being self-critical, right? I could have done this better a different way. The way you described it, it sounded like there was a feeling of a failure that was also present. Would that be accurate?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. If you're in the situation, failure of not having foreseen what would have happened, knowing who I am as a person and knowing maybe my limitations when it comes to money and these aspects of it, like not having just diverted to what would have been the logical path, given how I react to money and my relationship to money. So definitely failure would be a big point.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And as you're saying that in the automatic thought column, I'm already skipping ahead and I'm writing down, I should be able to foresee, help me finish that sentence.

SPEAKER_00:

I should be able to have foreseen what my reaction would have been because I've gone through this before. Like, why do I keep going back if I know this is what's going to happen and I'm going to have all of these negative feelings.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So another feeling that's coming out clear is frustrated or frustration.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Are you also

SPEAKER_02:

feeling embarrassed or humiliated or overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_00:

Overwhelmed, for sure. There's shame, I would say. Embarrassment and shame. That comes after.

SPEAKER_02:

When you say shame, I wonder if it also is, if there's a kind of loathing, like self-loathing. Shame to me says I'm inferior or I'm not good enough, but loathing is kind of like I don't like myself.

SPEAKER_00:

There's both. There's both aspects of it. Like the shame is revolved around like, why am I feeling these things? And then the loathing is like, why is this me?

SPEAKER_02:

Right, right. So I want to clarify something here. There are actually two situations that you're talking about. One is when you first feel cheated, right? So it's gone to a restaurant. and you take your first few bites of something and you're like, you know what, this isn't the jam. I could have done this better at home, right? So the other one seems to be after the event, which is when you feel further upset or further frustrated that you got upset in the first place And I don't know, do the same mental gymnastics. Yeah. So a couple more questions here. Do you, they're feeling questions. Do you think there's a feeling of fear or anxiety? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

I would say yes. Fear, which is fear. The fear of like, if I keep making these decisions, whatever little money I do have is going to be gone. The fear is representative in that, like, I'm going to end up how, my parents ended up where there's going to be struggle. And this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to have this struggle.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Okay. So I put down a couple of words here and I just want to explain them. So in the feelings list, I totally get that. What you're saying here is that fear is not so, it's not so prominent, right? I get that. And so, but I think it's useful to list that. And in brackets, I put fear of scarcity because that's, I think, the way I heard it, right? Yep, yep. And there's always with fear, there's a bit of anxiety, right? So it doesn't have to be super present. It's just there because anxiety in its protective function is almost always present when we think there's a threat in our environment. So fear and anxiety kind of go together. And then there's a bit of grief, I think. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but anxiety. when you said now I can't do something else, right. You're thinking, I made this choice and that means something else has to go. So there's like a grief or a law, right. Of a compromise, a consequence or a self there's like grief or self punishment. I can't see which you're already like, or something else I'm going to miss out on because I did this.

SPEAKER_00:

A bit of both. I would say. And I think in like, In economic terms, something that really stuck to me when I was learning about it, it's called the opportunity cost. By doing one thing, you are not doing another thing.

SPEAKER_02:

We do have to focus this a bit. So maybe we will say the situation consists of the duration of the meal. And so I'm going to read out the feeling list, and I want you to help me rate each feeling in this situation. And you're rating it in terms of intensity. So one would be not intense at all. And 10 would be quite intense. So feeling slighted.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably a five, I would say.

SPEAKER_02:

Injustice.

SPEAKER_00:

A four.

SPEAKER_02:

Unhappy.

SPEAKER_00:

Like an eight.

SPEAKER_02:

Disappointed.

SPEAKER_00:

Six.

SPEAKER_02:

Angry.

SPEAKER_00:

Six as well.

SPEAKER_02:

And self-critical.

SPEAKER_00:

Easily a 10, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Failure.

SPEAKER_00:

Seven.

SPEAKER_02:

Frustrated. Seven. Overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00:

A nine.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that makes sense. Feeling embarrassed.

SPEAKER_00:

I would say maybe a six.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Shame.

SPEAKER_00:

Six as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Loathing.

SPEAKER_00:

An eight, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Fear.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd probably give it a two. That's good. Anxiety. Yeah, I would give that a six, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

And so self-punishment.

SPEAKER_00:

probably an eight because usually that's where this conversation leads to where it's like, you know, you're unhappy, you're disappointed, you're frustrated. And then it kind of makes sort of that turn where it's, this is your fault. Like you did this, you didn't think this through.

SPEAKER_02:

So what you just described is self-criticism. You didn't do this. You didn't think this through. But if somebody were to say, hey, why are you being so hard on yourself? You probably would be like, No, this is, I deserve this, right? That's the self-punishment. I have to do this. This is the way

SPEAKER_00:

that

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to learn.

SPEAKER_00:

It's part of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I really am curious about this intensity of the grief and loss. Is it in this moment when you're like, I could have had something better. I could have made it at home. Are you feeling better? Like, is the grief at like a 10? Because you said opportunity cost is something that is so central in your mind. Or is it in the background like fear? I

SPEAKER_00:

would say like a 9 or a 10, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

So, Riz, in this situation, you go to a restaurant, you eat something that you could have made better at home. Or you realize that I ordered something that I could have made better at home. The situation lasts the duration of the meal longer. After the incident is a different situation, but there's some possible overlap with some of these feelings. So let's pause here. This is a lot that your body is trying to metabolize at once. A lot of feelings. The next column over is behavior. This is what you do briefly in those moments when you're feeling these things. So it could be, I complain. I retreat. I start doing a mental calculation. I start negotiating with myself. I get angry with my partner. I

SPEAKER_00:

get more so angry at myself. But like what you listed for the first four is like retreating, sulking. I would put being negative, complaining, overthinking, I would say maybe is a behavior.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm writing the word conflict. I know it's not quite conflict.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I'd say conflict is still an accurate word.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. One of the things you named that I want to give a different word to, because I think it's important, particularly in cognitive behavioral therapy, and that is when something replays in your mind over and over, I would call that rumination.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. King of illumination, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Love ruminating. Love ruminating, great. And so I just want to put that word out there because that is also something that we actively want to disrupt, right? If you are a researcher and you think about something over and over using a scientific method, what you get is a more accurate or a more refined result. When you repeatedly think about something and it doesn't come with a method, it doesn't lead to a refined result. It just leads to like what colloquially people would say, a spiral, right? People would be like, I'm spiraling. I'm losing the plot is what people would say. And I think that's the consequence of rumination.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's a very accurate. description of like when I'm ruminating this, it's spiraling out of control.

SPEAKER_02:

And so the rumination becomes all consuming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And now I'm moving over to perhaps the most important column, which is about automatic thoughts. So I put notes in here because of some of the things you've said, automatic thoughts are about what comes into your mind. in the moment. And remember, our moment could be the duration of the meal. So it could be when you first realized I got duped or I'm a fool, I got played. It could also be a little bit later in the meal where you start loathing yourself, criticizing. OK, now I want to get the thoughts that are kind of at the surface, the first things you think about. And then I will ask you follow up questions. And I'll put little arrows underneath them because those are like part of the automatic thought there, but they're a bit more refined. Okay. So here are the thoughts you've named already. I'm the fool. I got played. Saving money is part of the travel plan. Food is central in my life. I should be able to foresee the disappointment. I don't think we're going to disrupt the why I'm beating myself up yet because But when you say, why did this happen? Correct me if I'm wrong. The thought as a statement would be, this should not have happened.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And when you say, why did this happen to me? If I'm turning that, if I'm extracting a statement out of that, is there a thought there about being singled out or being victimized while other people are not?

SPEAKER_00:

More so that aspect of being unlucky, you know, like unlucky that it's happened because like, You know, of course this would happen to me in this thought process. Of course I would be the one not enjoying what I got. Tell me

SPEAKER_02:

about the of course. That sounds like a given. Like, of course this would happen to me. So I'm unlucky is one part of it, but it seems to me like another part of it is a thought about this being inevitable or you always getting the short end of the stick.

SPEAKER_00:

This thought of being unlucky because I'm always negative.

SPEAKER_02:

The first thought that comes up is a question. damn, why did this happen, right? So if we turn that into a statement, it's actually that this should not have happened. Why did it happen? I'm unlucky, but the way you're describing it is like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the thought here is I caused my own bad luck.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to leave that particular why did this happen there, and I'm going to move to the next statement. So the other one is I'm the fool. I got played. So I'm curious about what does it mean for you to get played? Why is that? Like there's something underlying here where there's, I get the image I get is like of a game, right? I got

SPEAKER_00:

played. It's very black and white. Yeah, it's a very black and white. Either you're the winner or or you're kind of the loser. Like I didn't have the upper hand. I didn't have the control. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_02:

Can you say more about not having control? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I was not in control. Therefore, what I didn't want to happen, happened. The bad that I didn't want is now present.

SPEAKER_02:

So the worst scenario I anticipated... Is here. Has happened. Yeah, is here. Exactly. Okay. The other thought you had was you had said saving money is part of the travel plan. So what does it mean for you if you're not able to save money or you're not able to stick to this travel plan?

SPEAKER_00:

When you're unemployed, like when you quit your job and then you go travel for a long term and you're not working during it, you really start off with a sum. And every day that you are on this trip, it gets smaller and smaller. And the only control that you have is how to still do everything you want to do, but not lose like that, not let that sum get too small, too fast.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you feel like the fun of exploring is diminished if you overspend or you don't get a good deal on something or you don't get the best value for your money?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes, 100%. So

SPEAKER_02:

if I were to phrase that, I'm kind of with a tone of punishment because I think that's what's present here is one of the things you're thinking here is I will now have to forego something I want to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

The other thing you had said was food is central in my life.

SPEAKER_00:

The most joy I have is like when I'm cooking myself or when I'm eating something that's just like so out of this world. There's a sense of happiness that I think I've only ever gotten playing like soccer when I'm in, you know, you're kind of in the zone. If a meal doesn't like go where I want it to go, then that's where the negativity comes in because it's like, well, why, why, why, why am I wasting such valuable time?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. This is where the fail sense of failure comes in. Right. So food is central in my life. Pure joy comes only from food and soccer. Uh, I've been able to foresee the disappointment is something you said before. I have failed in a way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's evidence that I won't get everything I want.

SPEAKER_02:

Part of this thought pattern or thinking style says or suggests that other people would not have made this mistake.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the comparison. Like other people are doing all these cool things. And like, even though I know I'm doing cool things, it's, Like I said, it's always you want what you don't have.

SPEAKER_02:

When you're comparing yourself to others, is there a particular group of people we're talking about? Or is it just everybody and anybody?

SPEAKER_00:

Like growing up in a family where, you know, one income, you're struggling. You're still enjoying to a degree, but you're struggling. And then you see people, you know, Going on boat cruises, people are going flying to somewhere else for a vacation to this remote place, you know, doing all these cool things. And you realize like the coolest thing you did was drive a car for eight hours to like an American city. And that's all you've got on your name.

SPEAKER_02:

If I think about your money attitudes or your money relationships, there's a thought here about like, I'm destined to repeat myself.

SPEAKER_00:

struggle. I've just seemed to repeat a cycle of struggle.

SPEAKER_02:

Look, it seems to me this last paragraph, I'm going to move it to the top of our automatic thoughts because I think we might be hitting at more of the central thoughts about not winning at life, not getting to do the things you want, being left behind. Is that right? Is this kind of at the core of it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. That's definitely at the core of like my relationship to money

SPEAKER_02:

so hoarding money is the possible fix and so the money attitude that i was getting at earlier is almost like a glorification of money like it'll save you it'll make everything better

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yeah

SPEAKER_02:

okay i think i've come up with a statement that represents what you're saying i just want to check it out with you, okay? So of all of this, the most prominent thought or the most underlying core belief or thought is I'm destined to repeat a cycle of struggle and money will be the only thing that truly determines good long-term outcomes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, that is.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that bang on? You get it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So our situation is I go to a restaurant and I realize that I ordered something that I could have made better at home. I feel cheated, slighted, injustice, unhappy, disappointed, angry, self-critical, a sense of failure, frustrated, overwhelmed, embarrassed, ashamed, loathing, fear, self-punishment, anxiety, loss, and grief.

SPEAKER_00:

Your

SPEAKER_02:

behavior, you're in a negative headspace, which looks like complaining and sulking. There's some conflict with your partner and you're retreating. There's ongoing rumination, right? Which is all continuing in a kind of spiraling. And so I say, Riz, what is the thought, the belief that drives a lot of the negative feelings and a lot of the behavior and the spiraling in this particular situation? And it's not about the food. It's about a realization. It activates this thought that you have had for a long time. It comes to the surface. And that thought is I'm destined to repeat a cycle of struggle and money will be the only thing that truly determines good long-term outcomes. Yes. And now I'm going to move us to the next column. And what I want to do is to evaluate the hot thought. The hot thought is the one that's in bold. You've already given me a bit of this, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You have said the evidence I have that suggests this is true. You said that people with money have an easier time. And then you said something about your parents. So did they repeat a cycle of struggle? Is there evidence that supports this idea?

SPEAKER_00:

Being immigrants coming to Canada, right then and there, there's a disadvantage. Like just working, working, working so they can make the livelihoods of myself and my sister better money for them is like the most important thing as well. Right. And spending money when it doesn't need to be spent is essentially the worst thing that you can do. When I was 13, my, my father lost his job and he was the primary earner and he never really recovered that. Like it was kind of bouncing between other jobs, nothing really secure. So all of that, plays into this part. So I've seen their struggle. I've spoken to them about their struggle. And I know, obviously, they had no control over that. But I think seeing that struggle shaped me in knowing what I don't want. So it's like you're spending money, again, is what I was talking about, is you're losing money. And if you're losing money, it's not

SPEAKER_02:

good. Okay, so there are right and wrong things to spend on. But also, any spending is bad.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. These are almost like new thoughts that are emerging or new automatic thoughts. But really, it's about the ethos in your family. So when we talk about evidence that supports your hot thought, that you're destined to repeat a struggle, and that the only thing that determines a good outcome is money, you're giving the evidence for like, how you know that to be true. Right? And these are very real things. Dad lost job, things were hard. Parents gave me this message and it seemed to be true. We were an immigrant family.

SPEAKER_01:

There

SPEAKER_02:

was a struggle. There was a cycle. And you looked at people around you and you're like, well, they look like you're having an easier time. Why do I think it is? Well, because they have money. So now I'm going to move us to the next column. Now we're talking about what evidence you have in your life that suggests you're not repeating a cycle of struggle and that other things determine happiness or good long-term outcomes that's not money.

SPEAKER_00:

So for the first part, I'm destined to repeat the cycle of struggle. At this current moment, I'm not destined to repeat that because I have saved up in my kind of fury before quitting my job or even just like existing under the house of my parents and learning from them is that you need to always have money put away. So at this moment, even though I'm traveling and I'm spending and I don't have a job, it's not the end of the world. Like I could go back and I could still like live.

SPEAKER_02:

And you also sounds like, like what you learned from your family were skills, right? Like I have financial planning skills. Would you agree? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

I have financial planning skills. I have, I would say maybe you put financial acumen.

SPEAKER_02:

So this is evidence that suggests you're not destined to repeat a cycle of struggle Other evidence, I think, is that your parents immigrated to a place and had to learn how to live in a completely new place.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And that is imbued with struggle. But actually, it's kind of ironic. You're traveling right now. You're born in Canada and you're traveling the world right now. Your experience with movement has very little to do with displacement.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So, um, I, I just, the one piece of evidence here is like, I am able to travel for pleasure. I'm not displaced.

SPEAKER_00:

I am doing the exact things I feared. I would not be able to do. So like I'm doing this traveling, even though I didn't like, I didn't want to have to live their life where they didn't get to necessarily do what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm actually doing the things I worried I wouldn't be able to. That's great. And one last thing. So part of this thought, part of this belief is that money will be the only thing that truly determines good long-term outcomes. What else determines long-term outcomes?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I would say health. determines good long-term outcomes.

SPEAKER_02:

When you say health, do you mean physical, mental?

SPEAKER_00:

Like both physical and mental.

SPEAKER_02:

So physical and mental well-being also determine long-term outcomes. Okay, great. Riz, your core belief, the hot thought was, I'm destined to repeat a cycle of struggle and money will be the only thing that truly determines good long-term outcomes. We already recognize that that's a tricky one because there's two, there's really two thoughts there. You've given me evidence that supports this hot thought. Like we have a good sense of where it came from. Very real experience. You've also given me evidence that does not support this hot thought, right? I want you to try to come up with an alternative thought to the hot thought. Something that is more balanced in light of the evidence for and against.

SPEAKER_00:

I know money is important, but it's not the only thing maybe that dictates a successful outcome.

SPEAKER_02:

So as an alternative thought, I've got money is important, but it's not everything. I'm thinking about this hot thought, like I'm destined to repeat a cycle of struggle. I'm thinking one of your thoughts could be, I've already broken the cycle of struggle. Of struggle. Mm-hmm. Which means I can afford to make some mistakes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Another thought could be...

SPEAKER_00:

I've experienced the bad to a degree, so it's not going to be the end of the world. Like, you know, things can change.

SPEAKER_02:

So one of the alternative thoughts I think that's emerging here is even my parents... Mm-hmm. made it out to the other side of

SPEAKER_01:

the

SPEAKER_02:

struggle. Another alternative thought could be, right, is the grief and anxiety I have now is from my childhood, but doesn't serve me in this situation. I'm thinking you're also wanting to rework the opportunity cost narrative. Something like I might not have been able to control this outcome and it doesn't say anything about me or my future. So Riz, what I'm going to ask you to do is to read each of these alternative thoughts

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_02:

I want you to tell me which one you actually believe the most.

SPEAKER_00:

The one I think that is most accurate would be the grief and anxiety is from my childhood.

SPEAKER_02:

So that alternative thought is the grief and anxiety I have now is from childhood, but doesn't serve me in this situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I'm going to put that in bold. I'm going to put this other automatic thought under it. Because I think they're related. So the grief and anxiety I have now is from my childhood, but it doesn't serve me in this situation. The sub point is I've already broken the cycle of struggle, which means I can afford to make mistakes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Now, I am going to paste... All of these feelings that we first identified in the last column. I want you to think about your alternative thought. And we're going to go ahead while you're thinking about the alternative thought and we're going to re-rate these emotions. How would you rate feeling cheated? Maybe a two. How slight do you feel?

SPEAKER_00:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

How big is the injustice?

SPEAKER_00:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

How big is the unhappiness or how intense? Five. Disappointed or disappointment?

SPEAKER_00:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

Angry?

SPEAKER_00:

Four.

SPEAKER_02:

Self-critical?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, six.

SPEAKER_02:

Feeling of failure?

SPEAKER_00:

One.

SPEAKER_02:

Feeling frustrated?

SPEAKER_00:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Feeling overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_00:

Three.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you still feel embarrassed?

SPEAKER_00:

So I put that as a one.

SPEAKER_02:

Feeling shame?

SPEAKER_00:

Two.

SPEAKER_02:

Loathing?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I would put that as like a two.

SPEAKER_02:

Fear.

SPEAKER_00:

Maybe like a seven.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Anxiety. Seven. Self-punishment. Three. Lost grief. Four. Do any new feelings show up for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Understanding.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, yes. To me, because this triggers what I would call a childhood trauma, on a physical level, you are quite activated. If we're containing some of the danger, what you might be feeling is just a bit of sadness about the past, but I'm not sure. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

no, that's what I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_02:

The word that's coming up to me that's a feeling word in this context, because you've now gone in and talked about your family, the ethos of that family and the struggle. I think if you're not as angry... What's underneath that is a feeling of vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I would say that's a good one. I didn't think of it, but that's what I was feeling.

SPEAKER_02:

And because we talked about the control aspect, this alternative thought helps you gain some sense of control in

SPEAKER_00:

a small

SPEAKER_02:

way. It

SPEAKER_00:

gives me control towards not having control, if that makes sense. It lets me know that... I can still go on without control, which is I think something I've been grappling with.

SPEAKER_02:

So when I think about thriving, I'm thinking that there's some feeling of being determined and there's a newfound following for uncertainty.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Take a look at this thought record. It looks, if we look at the feeling list, one of the things I'm seeing is with the alternative thought, We move away from the analogy of the good and the bad, the right and the wrong, the winner and the loser. Because the things around injustice and feeling cheated go down significantly.

SPEAKER_01:

The

SPEAKER_02:

feeling of being a person of failure goes down quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think... That part to me is very important because it would be unfortunate for you to take personal responsibility for all external circumstances. When you talk about the family as an immigrant family that doesn't have a lot of means or faces barriers, those are systemic barriers. They're not of their own making. The information that you were fed as a child, like saving money will determine good outcomes. Any kind of spending is bad. These are individual ways to cope with a systemic problem. Right. And the systemic problem is like racism and poverty that your parents would have faced.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, It's not that you don't face systemic struggle because you also exist in capitalism. You worry about money. You're racialized. You're worried about the future. We're also living in a time of extreme eco-anxiety. We see the world is on fire. We see politics are at their most extreme that I think we've seen in a long time. There's a lot of uncertainty about the future and I can appreciate your desire to want control in that context. You're like, how am I going to carve out a life for myself in this world of uncertainty if I keep making these small mistakes, right? So one thing that's similar in your life and in your parents' life is that there are a lot of external factors, right? that drive the anxiety and the fear. And what I'm telling you to think about or to consider thinking more about is how much individual responsibility you are trying to take for something that's systemic. There's a certain amount of uncertainty that comes with the context we live in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

As we wrap this up and I stop the screen share, one of the things I want to ask of you is, has this helped you think about your own struggle in a slightly different way? I

SPEAKER_00:

was in a square.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And you were showing me that really, like, it's a giant circle. Like, you're just, you know, you're just in this one small part. Like, it's huge. Wow. It's huge.

SPEAKER_02:

So the process of the thought record helped you zoom out and gain perspective.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Bird's eye view. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And then part of the questioning and even me preempting some of the statements was helping give language to some of the things you've been experiencing. Because it's really in the weeds. It's really muddled up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Okay. So it's been helpful. I want to live by it. And I think, you know, having done therapy before you hear it, yeah, back to them.

SPEAKER_02:

This has given you an example of what cognitive behavioral therapy can look like. If you were in therapy doing this kind of work, you know, the first two sessions would probably be history and background of, like, your life. Third and fourth sessions would probably be tackling, like, more immediate anxiety or symptoms that you experience, giving you skills to ground, to do imagery work, to do mindfulness, to help you more immediately. And then you would be doing a deeper dive and querying, is there a disorder there that we need to work on more specifically, like generalized anxiety or obsessions or whatever it is? I'm not saying you have any of those things, but that would be the next step. in a therapeutic process. And then it would take several sessions to do two or three different thought records and then give yourself time to reflect on them. So by now, in that process, we are at session eight or nine. And then we're thinking about some of the core beliefs that have emerged from doing two or three thought records. And now we're thinking about like how to apply this to your life and to decide, hey, is this enough? Or do we need to go deeper into some of the childhood trauma?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, it's nice to have this as a foundation. So it's good. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you so much for being a guest on the CBT Dive. And yeah, I hope this was helpful. And that's the CBT Dive for today. Thank you for joining us as we demonstrate therapy skills for the real world. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you can follow us on social media. The CBT Dive is intended for educational purposes only and not as a replacement for individual to a therapy.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

Host