The CBT Dive

Reframing the fear of being excluded

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Season 2 • Episode 3

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Host and therapist Rahim Thawer talks to Vance, a sex and intimacy coach, who discusses his behaviors and thoughts when he feels excluded, and his desire for a group of friends. Vance shares his experiences with friendships and the fear of being too much for others. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the isolation that can come with personal growth and the importance of being understood by a small group of people.

ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive. This is the podcast that demystifies cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm psychotherapist and host Raheem Thaur. In each episode, I walk a guest through applying CBT skills to real world situations. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm feeling pretty good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00:

I am pretty good. For our listeners, I want to say a little bit about you before we jump into our thought record. Vance is a sex and intimacy coach. He is 34, lives in Toronto, but he's originally a prairie boy from Saskatchewan. He's also a yoga teacher and really appreciates movement, dance, and all things embodied. Vance, I really would like for you to share a bit about what it means to be a sex and intimacy coach.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thanks. So I work with mostly queer folks, socialized men, to be able to find deeper connection and pleasure by practicing skills with me. So the somatic part of it is that I practice emotional and sexual skills with clients in real time with me authentically with boundaries so that they can see how it feels in their body to feel connection or maybe feel disconnected or feel shame and just see how those things show up and how we can come back into connection. So it's a very experiential practice, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00:

It absolutely does make sense. And I think people might hear that and wonder if that involves sex, but you did say with boundaries. How do you talk about boundaries with people?

SPEAKER_02:

Like within my work, I'm very clear within my boundaries of the things that we will not be doing. So it's funny when you mention, do I have sex? And it's like, Like intimacy, right? Like the goal is connection and intimacy. So the boundaries are that like clothes stay on. I don't kiss. I don't do penetration. I don't do oral with clients, but we can use touch, right? So we might do things like cuddling. We can build arousal, maybe with role play. We do spanking. We can play around BDSM stuff, right? So we can use all those within those boundaries. And so the thing with sex is like, I get a lot of clients who are like, oh, but I would really love to bottom and I want to work on that and see how that feels or something. And I'm like, great and and i can help you with skills about how to bottom but the thing is like the feeling is what we want to work on and building arousal so we can do very sexual things to create that feeling because maybe bottoming with someone who doesn't want that isn't going to feel good anyways right and so that's like the lesson within boundaries is like we're not working on creating a specific situation. We're focusing on creating a feeling within each other, which is eroticism, arousal, connection, safety.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I love that so much. I really appreciate that clarification. And for you Vance, I'm curious to know how does movement and touch how do they influence or impact your own mental health?

SPEAKER_02:

The one of the things that I've done every day, so since I was like 18, is I get up and I dance in the morning, but it's like a practice to get me out of my head and into my body. And so the goal of it is like, yeah, I notice when I'm in that place where I feel really free with my dancing and I'm like, oh, I've moved out of that place and I haven't changed anything besides just coming into my body and calming my nervous system down, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And as you talk about that, I can't help but make a connection here between the way you describe your work as a practice of inclusion and care for people. And yet, in the situation we're going to describe today or we're going to explore, it is a scenario where you feel excluded or left out. I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen. You'll see a thought record show up. So on the left side, we've got the situation column. Now that is a situation that activates difficult feelings. So prior to this recording, we had identified that one thing that's difficult or brings up a lot for you is when you might see a social media post about a party that you weren't invited to. This is something that's happened to you a couple of times, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I've gone through a lot of therapy and I do know that this is like, I know where this comes from. Like, I'm very self-aware of the fact that I was left out a lot when I was a kid. And there was a few years there when I was a teenager where I had no friends and also was struggling with family stuff. So like being alone and not feeling a part of something is my trauma.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Thank you for that. And so on the one hand, it's very useful to know where something comes from, what the history of that particular thing is. But also there's value in thinking, OK, when it shows up, what do I what am I going to do? Right. Because that isn't as clear cut. And so hopefully a thought record will help you identify the things that go on in your mind. when these difficult feelings come up in a situation where you feel left out and then you can consider what an alternative thought might be. So let's, I'm gonna ask you to think about a situation where you felt triggered because you were left out or imagine yourself seeing the social media post and that's when you realize there was something that occurred that you were not invited to. Vance, what were you feeling when you saw the post?

SPEAKER_02:

Anger? I feel sad. I actually, like, I go into fight or flight. Like, in the initial moment is a very, like, fuck them. You know, like, that's the initial what happens in that moment.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so the fuck them means anger, but also, like, hostility. Yeah, yeah, totally. And frustration.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Would that be frustration? I just want to make sure I'm not making, putting feelings in your heart.

SPEAKER_02:

I noticed my mind going into this place of like, oh, I'm never going to have friends. People are never going to like me. I'm never going to figure this out. Like I'm never going to be a part of a group of friends.

SPEAKER_00:

And when you say I'm never going to be, I'm thinking hopelessness.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

yeah. And the content of what you're saying makes me think about loneliness or isolation. Yeah, loneliness for sure. And you're feeling sad? And I'm guessing you're also feeling hurt.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, totally. So we've got a good list of feelings here. Anger, hostility, frustrated or frustration, sad, hurt, hopeless, lonely. Let's go through and let's try to rate each of these on a scale of one to 10. So when you see the social media post, how would you rate your anger? Probably a

SPEAKER_02:

10.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And hostility?

SPEAKER_02:

Eight.

SPEAKER_00:

And frustrated? Eight. Okay. And sad? Two. Hurt? Ten. Hopeless? Seven. And lonely? I'll say eight. All right. I'm seeing the feelings are pretty strong. What do you do in that moment?

SPEAKER_02:

I might have a moment with myself. Like I kind of lose it and have a bit of like losing my temper. Like, I'll say for example, one time when this happened, I broke my coffee table. So it just feels like, yeah. So it feels like I just need to get the energy out in the initial moment. It just has this feeling of like, fuck. And in that moment, I punched my coffee table and broke it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So you'd redirect the aggression toward an object. You know, that's pretty, that sounds pretty good. It's quite healthy, you know? Yeah. Now, the next column is automatic thoughts. So these are the thoughts that come up for you when you see the social media posts and you feel angry, frustrated, hurt, hopeless, lonely. And you already began talking about some of these. Like, for example, one of the things you said was, I'll never have a group of friends. Was that it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So what are the other thoughts that come up for you? Fuck them. Yeah. and I just want to make fact them a full sentence. So if I were to say like, I really hate them or I'm really angry with them, would that work?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. That works.

SPEAKER_00:

And when you say there, I'm really angry at them. Right. That's like a stance. And I'm thinking if I were to turn that into a statement that is about them, as opposed to how you're feeling, I wonder if the statement would be, um, they hurt me on purpose or they're vindictive or they're inconsiderate.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, definitely inconsiderate when I can like rationally think about it. Like I feel really hurt that it felt like I didn't matter. So the thought here is like, I

SPEAKER_00:

didn't matter.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Like you don't even care about me. You didn't even think about me. Are

SPEAKER_00:

these newer friends that you would just say people, or would you say these, this is my, These are friends, people that I thought were friends of mine.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, friends for sure. I mean, it can still be like, I'll notice it too now. Like if I just see people that I don't know, like I used to always do this with groups of gay men all hanging together because it is a very like prevalent thing on social media of like the. 10 plus gay guys that get together every weekend or doing dinner parties of at least 10 people. And I'm like, how the fuck do they do that? I don't even have two friends. You know what I mean? I could never invite that many people to a thing. And so that would bother me or trigger me. But when it's someone that is my friend, yeah, that is the intense trigger.

SPEAKER_00:

So they're inconsiderate. I'll never have a group of friends. I didn't matter. to my friends when they were making a plan. So when you say, I'll never have a group of friends, I think there's more packed into that. Do you mind telling me a bit about your experience with friendships? Have they been hard to maintain in your experience?

SPEAKER_02:

So I'm from Saskatchewan, right? And I'm from rural Saskatchewan where I went to school with the same kids, kindergarten and grade eight. So there was the same, like, I think there was like 12 or 13 of us. We're all like pretty close and everyone is friends. And around like grade seven, things shifted. And my theory is because I think we're starting to be like young adults and maybe my queerness started to be more like they're more aware of it, of the difference of it. And so it just like the entire class, just everyone just started treating me differently, like treating me differently. Like they started bullying me. Right. So like it was leaving me out of things. I wasn't included in things anymore. Everyone was mean to me physically and mentally abusive. And so that was a moment where I never felt like it was a part of anything. And then I felt like I felt like this throughout my whole life where I've noticed how I do not really fit in with a group. And some of it, I think it's just like my psychology from that trauma is that I feel like, oh, I'm not as important. I don't fit in with this group. Like, I don't have this group that's going to call on me all the time to like, hey, we're doing this this weekend. We're doing that. When it comes to the I'll never have a group of friends, I think that thought started to come in a lot more in the last few years where like, you know, now I'm 34 and I'm like, wow, this is gonna be like, I'm gonna be 40 and still not really have a group of friends. So then it starts to like that feeling of, I can't believe I'm still dealing with this. Like, oh, this is kind of like the evidence is starting to show that I will never have a group of friends.

SPEAKER_00:

And what has it meant to try and have a group of friends? Or what would it say about you if you were to have a group of friends? Like the 10 people you invite to a dinner party,

SPEAKER_02:

it would mean that I feel like I'm a part of something, that I'm included. There has been times that I have been within a group, but it always seems to like, I still just don't feel like I fit in. And there are these moments, but then I feel like as soon as people start to get to know me, I start to get pushed out of the group. And so when I'm in the group, I feel like, wow, this is so great. Like, I'm so happy. I love being a part of this group. but then it like doesn't seem to last.

SPEAKER_00:

I imagine you've, that's registered in your psyche in some way. So when people get to know me, you might say to yourself, they'll inevitably push me away. Is that how you think about it?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if I like think that clearly with it, but I do notice that like in relationships, certain relationships, I'll notice like maybe I get more anxious sometimes. Because I'm like, oh, they're not going to stick around. They're going to leave. Or, you know, when I'm a part of that group, I'm like careful with who, like how I express myself and how I am because there is this like subconscious feeling of like, oh, don't be too much because then you're going to lose it.

SPEAKER_00:

Would you say like, if I'm too much, I'll scare people away?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I totally, I know that I do.

SPEAKER_00:

So what does being too much mean? Is it talking about a particular thing? interest hobby a lot? Is it sharing personal thoughts or beliefs about something? What does it mean to be too much?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, even when I, what I just said about when all my classmates started or stopped hanging out with me, stopped liking me. Yes. My queerness was too much because they didn't know how to handle that. Like I grew up in a place that was so conservative and very redneck. And so being gay was too much. That was too much for people to handle. Right. But that's okay. And so like, Like, now I notice, like, presently, I notice that, you know, even when I talk about being a sex coach, or doing sex work, or whatever, or just being sexually open, I know that triggers people, because it is too much for people, because, like, it triggers their own shame with it. One of the reasons why I don't... I'm not for everyone, and I understand that, is because... I'm so sensitive that it's really hard for me to be inauthentic. It's really hard for me to be as like a lot of men have learned to like, Oh, just be stoic. Don't say anything. Don't be emotional. Don't be sensitive. Right. Like those are the messages we learn. And like, I learned that too, but, uh, apparently like it didn't work for me and I'm still like this sensitive, emotional person. And so if I'm around a group of guys, men who, uh, are not comfortable with feelings, then I am too much for them. But the thing is, I have to be that, and instead of being like, oh, okay, I'll change for you guys and I'll make you more comfortable, I have to just be myself and be like, that's okay. This is not a relationship I wanna be in that asks us to change who we are to be friends or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00:

You've said some really interesting things. So one was I was trying to figure out what too much looks like in your adult self. And it sounds like it's about talking about feelings.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a big one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a big one. And that scares people away. The other thing you said was my work activates shame in other people. That's really fascinating. Can you tell me just a little bit more about how you see that happening? Because I think you're right. I'm just curious about that process.

SPEAKER_02:

When I tell people what I do, there usually is like, oh, well, that's crazy. Or like, that's urgent, different, right? I shouldn't say crazy, but we were like, oh, wow, that's like, what is that or whatever? And when I start to kind of talk about it, I noticed that like the conversation ends, not for everybody, but like I noticed some people will be like, I don't even ask about it because like, I don't even want to talk about it. Because if I start talking about like sex and shame and shame with sex, like someone, which a lot of people, we all have shame involving sex. It's just varying degrees. And so if someone hasn't dealt with that, that's just going to make them uncomfortable. So why would I or why would that person would be like, oh, please tell me more. I would love to hear more about your work or how is work going? Like it just kind of becomes a thing of like, oh, I just don't talk about that. And so to me, it actually feels like what I notice is it feels like people aren't being supportive.

SPEAKER_00:

I hear that. Thank you for clarifying that. It really gives me a sense of the isolation that comes with having done a certain amount of psychological work. I think a lot of people can appreciate that if they're in therapy, talking about their family traumas or attachment issues, traumas, and no one else in their family has done that work, that personal growth ends up being very isolating. And I'm seeing that kind of parallel here. But in this context, it's more with other gay men. And I'm guessing your experience beginning in seventh grade propelled you toward comfort with self, dealing with shame and dealing like challenging your own shame kind of head on. And so when you say I'll never have a group of friends, I'm thinking if I were to expand that, it might be that you're you're worried, you'll never have a group of friends who understand you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, I want to go back to this idea of the group of friends. Since we all saw the show friends i think we've all wanted a group of friends you know and not just that show but you know many shows and then we all saw queer as folk and we saw the l word and any major television or show with like high school kids and like their core group of

SPEAKER_01:

friends

SPEAKER_00:

yeah It's just so present. It's such a present trope. And I think a lot of us long for that.

SPEAKER_02:

But I also think that there is a thing with, I mean, we have this obsession. There is this overcompensating. So like being famous or like having a lot of followers or something or having as many people at your birthday party as possible to show on social media becomes a thing of like, I'm not worthy of love. So I have to show that like I have love. X amount of people that love me instead of, even if it's not like deep friendships, right? It's more about like, wow, if I fill my life with like a large group of people all the time, I will feel loved. But I think it's like a inauthentic, very surface level love that you kind of need to be with those people all the time to feel that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And you saying it that way, I imagine feels so threatening to so many people, right? Yeah. And so in a way, I think one of your other thoughts here that is not quite at the surface but might be underneath is that people can't handle some of the things I like to talk about or I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. People can't handle the truth. Yeah. The kinds of honesty. So people can't handle the kinds of honesty and analysis I bring about. I'm going to say to casual conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You did say like, I'm almost 40 and I don't have this group. And so if you don't have this group, what will that mean for your life?

SPEAKER_02:

Cause when I'm like 22 and this is happening, you know, you feel like you got a lot of time to like find that group of friends. But then when you're 34, you're like, oh my God, six years, like what if I'm 40? And like, I still don't have this, right? And then it's, to me, the thought is, wow, there's something wrong with me.

SPEAKER_00:

It feels like maybe a bit more high stakes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like I'll say like when I'm in the moment, in the triggered moment of my nervous system is so activated, I do have this thought. And this is when like, I'm really activated. I do have this thought of like- If I'm still doing this when I'm 50, I don't want to be doing this. This is not a life worth living.

SPEAKER_00:

It gets to a dark place.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And one of your thoughts here is I'll be alone forever.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're also thinking that wouldn't be a life worth living. That's a heavy thing.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm

SPEAKER_00:

going to put that down because I want to honor that. Like that is a very, it's a very vulnerable thing. to put out there. And I just, yeah, I want to just hold it. It shows me how dire it can feel at times, the loneliness. So as I look at your automatic thoughts column, the next thing I was going to ask is what is the most salient thought, like the most prominent one that drives a lot of these difficult feelings?

SPEAKER_02:

Like I'm lonely is the thought.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I'll never have a, have a group of friends. I'm going back to the first one and I'll always experience loneliness.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Does that fit?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If I were to make that the bold and like, if I was to make that bolder and I said, that is the hot thought, meaning that's the one, um, that drives a lot of the difficult feelings. Would you say that's the thought that's crossing your mind?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So I'll never have a group of friends and I'll always experience loneliness. You've already given me some evidence that supports this. I've been trying since grade seven. Right? That's one of the things you had said. So that's hard. Have you been part of other groups that have then excluded you beyond the one that you're mentioning here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I think to... varying degrees. Like I'll say like when I was in grade 11, I, I ended up meeting a bunch of queer people in my school and becoming really good friends with them. I mean, it was mostly queer women that I was friends with in high school and they were kind of like, I love them. You know, I was kind of like, I was wanting to like, listen to Britney Spears and Madonna. And like, they were very much into like punk rock. And so like I was getting excluded from things or not feeling like, I feel like I'm the odd man out still. Like I'm the black sheep of every group. So I just always still feel like I'm not, I don't just like fit in very easily.

SPEAKER_00:

So, so felt left out of grade 11 queer group, even though... I was seemingly included. You

SPEAKER_02:

know, when I was teaching in yoga, like a lot of yoga is a very, like it's not a feminine practice, but like mostly women do yoga. Again, I was like, sometimes felt like, wow, I'm the only guy in the group. And it's so easy for them to all talk about like yoga for menstruation or like creating community groups for like women to feel more empowered. And I was like, well, I'm not a part of this because like, I'm the guy in the group. And so it would be even in that that I was like, ah, I just, where's my people? Like, I still feel like I'm doing these things and I still can't find my people.

SPEAKER_00:

Where are my people? And if there's something particular about gay men in more recent time that supports this idea that you'll always experience the loneliness. And one piece of evidence I think that you have is like, In your work, you've been seeing other men struggle with this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, with loneliness, yeah, for sure. I mean, I see it with my people that I just know, friends and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Ah, so in my work and friend group, loneliness is a challenge for a lot of us. Okay, now we're gonna switch columns and think about evidence that doesn't support the hot thought. So things that suggest that you could have a group of friends or you won't always experience loneliness.

SPEAKER_02:

I have been a part of groups. It just always, it doesn't feel like it lasts. The other way that I've also felt about this, like when I talk about like not fitting in, I'm like, that's okay. And I do think it's like, what I talk about is like, I have this weird inability to like, be like, oh, I'll conform to fit in with the group. So even in my work, there's a big like sociology aspect to it. And like just about how we do conform and fit in. And what I try to teach people is to be authentic, to be themselves, to like do what I do.

SPEAKER_00:

Does that strive toward authenticity connect you to people ever? Is it ever a vehicle of connection?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, it's the like in my work, like I can't have a... client come in and then be inauthentic and not, you know, say how I feel or how they're making me feel. Cause then I'm like, well, what do you like? That's not my job, right? The job is to be myself and to tell them how I feel, ask for them to tell me how they feel. It does connect me to people, but I understand that level of authenticity is, a lot of the times requires more one-on-one situations or small groups or like a yoga class or something where like people are walking into that situation being like, okay, we're going to talk about feelings and emotions, not, you know, it can't be at someone's birthday dinner where I'm like, hey, so what's everyone's trauma, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

And that is a good point. So you've got some really strong skills around authenticity, right? sharing feelings and emotions and connection with people. You literally know how to foster, facilitate and nurture connection. And when you gave this example of walking into a party and you say, I'm not gonna say, hey, what's everyone's trauma? It made me think, I wonder if there's a blind spot there. Have some skills been developed to the exclusion of others? So for example, the skills here would be more social or light conversation. Do you find that difficult?

SPEAKER_02:

I do find that difficult.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And is that what you're seeing in a lot of groups of friends that they're always kind of surface level?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, when I'm, you know, having that feeling of like I don't fit in or whatever, I feel kind of on the outside because I know a lot of it is just, you know, Hey, what'd you do this weekend? Well, it was fun. What are you up to this week? Right? It's just very like external things is what most people talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

And what do you long to talk about? I think there's a need here that doesn't get met of yours. And it's not just about a group of friends, but possibly wanting to be seen, appreciated and more. What is the need you have?

SPEAKER_02:

The way I see intimacy is when we can see each other who we authentically are in that moment. That is intimacy. So like, if I say to you, how are you doing today? And you actually say how you feel instead of saying like, good. And there is a feeling of like, when I get that with someone, it just feels like there's this ease, like my body can relax because it's work for me to be like, because I have to think about like, okay, what can we talk about? So

SPEAKER_00:

you feel at ease, perhaps intimate when people share honestly. I'm seeing in our conversation, and as I said, I went a bit off script, but there are a number of facets to your life and your history that culminate in this current situation where you're longing for connection for a group. Like there's this idea of the group and coming to terms with not having that. And now we're moving to one of the last columns, which is an alternative thought. This is an alternative to the phrase, to the hot thought, which was I'll never have a group of friends and I'll always experience loneliness. And I think one thing you've already said early on is I'm not for everyone and that's okay. So I put that down as an alternative thought because you already use that. But I know, based on the session we've had so far, that that doesn't directly speak to the longing for a group of friends. And so what are alternative thoughts, things you can say to yourself that respond to the hot thought?

SPEAKER_02:

I met some pretty amazing people who also do this work. uh who support me um and i remind myself that i'm like there is a small group of people like a small number of people in this world that i admire so much that um i don't say like me but like uh support me um and that's really fucking cool and i just have to think about those new people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So there's a small group of people whom I admire and they like slash support me. I like the word like, I think that's nice. We want to be liked. I know, or I'm guessing in your imagination, you wanted the group you always had to be with gay men. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02:

There definitely is a longing for intimacy with men. I've always, it's been easier to connect with women and feel safer around women. Men is a bit of a different situation that I've always kind of felt like men are going to fuck me over is the feeling. There just is this longing to really connect with men. And I guess the alternative thought that I would also use to that is that men are not good at talking about feelings and emotions. Just the majority of them, I don't know what that number is, but the majority of men are socialized to not be good at this. So the statistics of me finding a group of men guy friends who are like all going to want to talk about their feelings and emotions is kind of low so like it shouldn't it's not easy because there's not a lot of them like you know yes i always think about how especially with us as like queer men we you know we feel really different from straight men and feel like you know they're not safe and we just have this like discomfort with straight men right and i'm like you know what those straight guys are like more like you than you know because you could get a group of guys all watching drag race and there is no difference between that group of guys but besides maybe the clothes that they're wearing then the group of guys all getting together to watch football no one is talking about feelings usually people are drinking like no one is talking about external things it's just a very superficial friendship which is fine but like The group of straight guys are doing that too. They might just not be as gay doing it, right? Or maybe they haven't talked to everyone in the group.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I've got a couple of alternative thoughts based on what you've said. Okay, so I'm not for everyone and that's okay. There is a small group of people whom I admire and they like slash support me. Men are not socialized to be good at talking about feelings and... that's important to me. I'm rightly disappointed that gay men aren't that different from straight men. Because I think that was a hope you had from grade seven even. And I have a longing for connection to men and that part of me deserves self-compassion. Is there anything about the group of friends being overrated?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I learned this past year, I was a part of a group of friends that And a lot of this stuff happened a lot. And I was like, I don't like being a part of this group of friends. And there was a moment, I remember, where I was with not just the group, but it was a party where there was a ton of people there. And I was like, I am not enjoying myself. I keep walking around and keep trying to interact with other people. And I'm just not... I'm not like, I'm not connecting with anybody. There's like too many people here where I just feel almost uncomfortable. Like, of course, no one's going to be like talking about the things I want to talk about. This is just not my space. I do think it's overrated. And I think a big part of it is part of it is that we think that the more friends we have, the more we're loved instead of being like, no, it actually takes having intimacy with a small handful of friends that because you can't be like, Like we all have a lot of friends and it's great to have lots of people in our lives. Right. But I mean, you need to just have a small group, like maybe even one or two that you can open up to be yourself around, talk about your feelings, actually have support when things are struggling, they're going to be there for you. Like that's one or two people, maybe five tops. Right. But it's not fucking 30 people in your life.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So you'll see that I added some things to the alternative thought column. The last two things being being part of a group of friends comes with the cost. This doesn't actually work for me. And intimacy with the small group leads to feeling loved, not having a big group. I love this set of alternative thoughts. Now, here's the hard part. Which one do you believe the most that is most helpful? for you to combat or counteract the hot thought and that you think that would mitigate some of the feelings.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not for everyone and that's okay. The lesson that I've learned in this past year is the more authentic you are, you're going to have people not like you and not even not like you, that's like even feels too strong a word, people that won't connect to you.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So if I expanded the alternative thought that you like best, it would be, I'm not for everyone and that's okay. When you're vulnerable and authentic, you will lose people.

SPEAKER_01:

Is

SPEAKER_00:

that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And when you think about that thought, how do you then rate your anger? Two. What about hostility? One. Frustration? One. Sadness? A four. Yeah. And so how would you rate hurt? Four. And hopeless?

SPEAKER_02:

A one.

SPEAKER_00:

Lonely? I'll give that a

SPEAKER_02:

three.

SPEAKER_00:

So most things went down, but sadness went up. And one of the ways I think about this is when we contain some of the more challenging feelings, we have more space for grief. And I think your authentic self knows very well that you're hurting and that there's lots of grief to be had here. And I know that you're also grieving an idea you had in your mind about what acceptance and what an ideal community would look like. But you're also adjusting. I think if I could even add to your alternative thought, it might be that my dream for what connection looks like has changed and will continue to change. As you look at your chart, what are your thoughts? What are your reflections? I mean, you spewed out your alternative thought way in the beginning. So was there anything gained in this process? And it's okay if it's not, but I'm curious if anything shifted in you, if there were new realizations.

SPEAKER_02:

It's interesting to put all this into a chart and talk about it with someone. I guess I feel... really proud that i like because this is okay so everything we put in this chart this has been like this has been my last year yeah and like there was a lot of stuff that happened this last year that was to this situation that allowed me to learn all these things like something i thought of like oh this is my last year and like i'm really proud because that last column is kind of where I'm at right now in my life. And that feels really good when the first few months of this year was that second column for months. And so that's really wonderful

SPEAKER_00:

that I got there. It kind of shows your progress in that way. Thanks so much, Vance. Your sharing has got me thinking about how we might have certain dreams that help us get through difficult times. that it gets better campaign. It rings in my mind sometimes because I think when I was younger and also stuck in a place that would have run true for me because I would have imagined myself also having like, oh, a gay group of friends. And then you get older and you realize like, you could have friends, but the way you understand them shifts a bit. And that comes with grief, adjustment, recalibration, authenticity, To hear that that's been your last year brings out a lot of compassion because I'm just thinking, whoa, it's not been an easy year, Vance. Yeah. Vance, I'm going to leave it there for today. Thank you for being on a CBT Dive. It was a pleasure to have you. Thank you. And that's the CBT Dive for today. Thank you for joining us as we demonstrate therapy skills for the real world. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you can follow us on social media. The CBT dive is intended for educational purposes only and not as a replacement for individual therapy.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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