The CBT Dive

Masking jealousy with stoicism in a poly relationship

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In this conversation, psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawer is joined by José, a psychologist and poet who lives with their partner. José shares their experience as the anchor partner in a polyamorous relationship and they explore the feelings and behaviors that arise in certain situations, such as when their partner shows affection to another partner but not them. Rahim guides Jose through examining the automatic thoughts and consequences that result from these experiences, including feelings of being replaced or inadequate. 

The conversation highlights the importance of open communication and understanding in navigating polyamorous relationships. In this conversation, Rahim helps José identify and analyze their hot thoughts related to feeling forgotten and unappreciated in their polyamorous relationship. They explore past relationship patterns and evaluate evidence to challenge these thoughts. José generates alternative thoughts and reassurances to provide a more balanced perspective. Rahim also suggests asking for affection or attention as a way to address José needs.


ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the CBT Dive. This is the podcast that demystifies cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawar. And each episode, I walk a guest through applying CBT skills to real world situations. Jose. I'm going to tell the listeners a bit about you. So, Jose is a psychologist. They are a fabulous queer person of color, originally from Puerto Rico, right? And we met in Lexington, Kentucky, of all places, during a conference called the Contemporary Relationships Conference in 2023. And we just kept in touch because we were just like... I mean, we're both just too cute not to, you know? And what's really fascinating is Jose is really committed to liberation psychology. And I didn't know what that was until I met them. And I am so invested in some more traditional models, which probably... elicit a mild disgust response in Jose. But we're here to see how we can learn from each other. Jose, is there anything you want to say about yourself that I've missed here? I

SPEAKER_01:

used to be a hairstylist. That's where I learned how to listen. I've published four collections of poetry as well. So I would say I'm creative. Literally, sensually, just about everywhere. And yeah, like I think in Spanish, so I'm always translating. And yeah. I am stuck in Cincinnati, which is like hell for me, but I'm going to be free from it in a little bit. So

SPEAKER_00:

it's fine. I'm excited to dive in this with you. And I'm thanking you in advance for your vulnerability, you know, because there are a lot of people who are therapists out there who really shy away from vulnerability. And I think there's just so much value in this kind of sharing. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. So the situation on the left that we've identified, it's when other partners of my partner are present, I get stuck. But the specific situation is when my partner kissed his other partner in the morning. But didn't kiss me. And this was in the living room. It was in the summer. You were all in the same home. You and your partner live together. Yes. Your partner has other partners and that other partner was visiting. Yes. Correct. Okay. So Jose, in this specific moment in the living room, when you didn't get the kiss, the morning affection, what were you feeling?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I was feeling crushed.

SPEAKER_00:

Crushed. Okay. Yes. Like a building just

SPEAKER_01:

squashed me.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so I want to take crushed and I'm going to write down crushed, but I want to, I want to have a slightly more refined feeling. So let's go through a list of feelings and see what we can generate. And then we can erase the ones that don't fit. Anxious.

UNKNOWN:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

More like dread. Dread. Okay. Sadness? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Is martyr a feeling? Like feeling like a martyr?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Okay. Tell me a bit about what you mean by that because I just– I put it down, but I want to make sure we know what it means.

SPEAKER_01:

So in that moment, it felt like I had contributed so much to this home. I like– I contribute financially. I do all of these things. I cleaned before the other partner came here. I'm keeping things spotless, typical house person things that is in a 1920s marriage. And then in that moment, it was this experience of like, why can't you see my suffering? Like, why can't you see all of these things that I'm doing for you? So invisible. Yeah, yeah, like invisible. Underappreciated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

This is a good list of feelings. Let's go through these. And for each one, I'm going to ask you to rate it on a scale of 1 to 10. Now, this is... The moment of witnessing the kiss and then it's the kiss that you didn't get. So crushed one to ten. Ten. Replaced?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say a six.

SPEAKER_00:

Dread. It

SPEAKER_01:

was there, but it wasn't ass intense. So maybe I'm like in between a two and a threes, but I'm going to go with three.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And sad? Eight. Excluded. Ten. Yeah. That martyr feeling? Like a seven. And then feeling invisible?

SPEAKER_01:

Both invisible and underappreciated, ten. Oh,

SPEAKER_00:

wow. Okay. Okay. So there's a lot of intense feelings here. I'm an

SPEAKER_01:

intense person.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, yeah, and I'm not. There's no judgment in that, right? I'm just thinking about all the things that are going through your body. I also wonder, like the feeling that comes up for me, like there's a kind of, when you said maybe this is martyr, but like stoicism, like to be spoke?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you nailed it.

SPEAKER_00:

Should I say martyr slash stoic?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. I was just, you know, Catholic brain.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Fair, fair. It took me a while to get the words to. So we've got these feelings. And what did you do in the moment? So we're moving over to the next column, which is about behavior. And when we do the thought records, sometimes the behavior column is important, but sometimes with a thought record, we're often not trying to focus on behavior change. We're more focusing on changing the way we think or understanding the way we think. So I'm curious about your behavior, but we're not going to put a lot of emphasis on it. So what did you do in that moment?

SPEAKER_01:

So I do this thing with my face. It's kind of like my eyebrows just get really like close together. And then, you know, I just look like I want to kill someone. So like

SPEAKER_00:

a furrowed brow.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Angry expression.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I only look down at the floor. So I don't, I don't look at people. I don't look at things like my eyesight is to the floor. I stonewall. So I just get quiet. And if I'm talked to, then I'm answering in one word. Okay. And I would also do like an adult tantrum. Like, you know, I'm going to have this mood, but I'm not going to retreat or self-regulate. I'm just going to stay in front of you so you can see that I'm in a bad mood. Show

SPEAKER_00:

people I'm in a bad mood without soothing myself.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, look, some of these behaviors have given me made me think about other feelings. So I'm just going to go back a moment. Furrowed brow, angry expression. Should we add angry to the feelings list? Self-righteous. I love that. Okay. And how would you rate self-righteous? Pretty high off, like a nine. Okay, great. And when you say look down at the floor? Inadequate. And how would you rate inadequate? Seven. So thank you. I'm glad we really examined this from a feelings perspective. And I think we've completed the picture of feelings. In this moment, when your partner kissed his other partner, but not you, what's the first few things that went through your mind?

SPEAKER_01:

So the first thing, and this is, I remember, because I wrote it down. Because sometimes my, and it's not helpful, but I try to self-regulate by texting myself everything that's on my head. Very low success rate. But I had written to myself at that time, I'm not loved. And this is it. It's over. So

SPEAKER_00:

those were the two things. quickest things that came to you, right? And I'm thinking like, these are just so bold and like they're distilled, you know, they're not, they don't speak to some larger things. It's just like, here's the outcome. And so that's, that's okay. That's useful. However, I'm going to ask a few more questions, I think. When you were feeling self-righteous, for example, right? What's the thought connected to self-righteousness?

SPEAKER_01:

How dare he?

SPEAKER_00:

How dare he?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And how dare he? You can't believe this because of how much you've done, how much you've prepared. Yeah. Right? So let's put those two things into context. a statement. So something like, I put a lot of effort into this relationship or I give more than the other partner, something like that. How dare he not say hi to

SPEAKER_01:

me? Like, no. Yes. Like I'm in your face and you just ignored me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And if he ignores you, um, What does it say to you? What is the message he's conveying? Like I'm of lesser importance. Okay. And if you're not as important as you thought you were, you know, one of the consequences could be that it's over. But is there a consequence about– is there another kind of consequence like– about you about how you understood the relationship

SPEAKER_01:

i i think it connects with the ex the feeling of dread yeah um because like it played through my head at that time kind of like if i'm of lesser importance what the relationship is going to look like if if i'm kind of like left in the periphery um thinking about like will we divide our finances will we live in different spaces. So kind of like questioning the commitment that we had at the moment just because I didn't get that good morning kiss.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So this is very important. One of your thoughts here is I'm not sure he's as committed as me.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

But your mind is also going to the logistics of a breakup. Yeah. Right? Which tells me there's a big fear around... And I'm reaching a bit, so let me know if it's... But there's an underlying anxiety or fear around precarity or uncertainty. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So one of the other thoughts is... I don't know what a breakup will look like. And what's the fear of the, like, what would go wrong in the division of things? Is it that you would get less or you would be destabilized? Are you worried about being destitute? Like, where does your mind go?

SPEAKER_01:

So this is like where the inadequacy comes in because what comes up for me is like, I've always been a person that's been with people. I've never lived alone. So I'm from a big family. I've always had housemates. So the inadequacy comes of my partner is very autonomous and independent, whereas I'm more interdependent and I rely a lot on social contact to do things. So if we were to break up and I were to stay here, I would feel inadequate. And like, how will I navigate the city? How will, like, I do all of the things that need to be done. You know, the relationship is over. He's going to pick up and go, and I'm going to be here alone. And I don't know how to navigate the city.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. All right. And if you don't know how to navigate the city, if you were... single gal and your city was the other partner. Well, what feels hard about that for you? I driving

SPEAKER_01:

where to meet people. Where are the first spaces? That's good. Having friends or family near. And if we were to break up financially, like we would not do with one salary like living where we are etc so like that would also bring more complications because if you're tight financially then all of these things to meet people and go places yeah just gets taken away from you

SPEAKER_00:

so If you were trying to live in Cincinnati on just one person's salary, what would that look like for you? Would you have to change neighborhoods, be further from work, be further away from queer people? I

SPEAKER_01:

would definitely have to move, but then, because I live walking distance from my job, so I walk every day. So I could move to a cheaper area, but then I've done the math of like, I would need to get a car somewhere. Considering commute, considering like, okay, if I commute this amount of time every day, is it realistic if I cook and kind of like do meal prep? Will that translate to buying more food?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So in a way, the thought here is my life will be upended. I'll have to move to a cheaper area, get a car, think about meal prep in a new way. And you might not do all of those things because you've said like, then those things will cost me money. But you are thinking about a huge life transition and you're talking about a car right now. The partner does the driving. I imagine there's some anxiety around driving. I know I don't like to drive. I don't know how to. But you're thinking about, you're almost preparing for a huge life transition. Yeah. Okay. So all of this came from how dare he not say hi to me and ignore me. One of your first thoughts was I'm of lesser importance and the word lesser is a bit comparative in a way. And so I just want to point out that there may be–

SPEAKER_01:

Something more subtle because now I'm just kind of like– I would say things to myself kind of like– Not, not being jealous, but more kind of like being envious around kind of like they get the best version of my partner. Like, you know, they don't live with my partner. They're not with my partner all the time. Like they don't have to deal with like when they have bad days or rough days, et cetera. But I do.

SPEAKER_00:

This last statement, they get the best version of my partner while I see all sides to me says something about an unfairness. I think that you're right. you're witnessing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, so three things are coming up for me. Um, so, so one is I've been at that time, I've been five years with my partner. Um, and it, it was like, I've prepared them to date someone else. Like I've given them all the skills, um, and all of that. So, you know, that's very entitled right there. The second part is definitely that craving of like, when will I get that treatment again? Cause you know, like I used to get that type of treatment.

SPEAKER_00:

Describe the treatment. What is the treat? It's like being prioritized or being

SPEAKER_01:

just kind of like receiving affection spontaneously, like flirty comments, physical touch.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you say, when will I get that again? It's a question. If I turn it into a statement, would it be, I miss?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I miss spontaneous. I miss and

SPEAKER_01:

I want this again. Yeah. And then the, the third thing that came up for me is, It's kind of like a sense of pride that I have the privilege of kind of like seeing all of the sides of my partner. You know, it kind of reminds me why I love him. There

SPEAKER_00:

is something here of like it not being returned, I think. Yeah. Is there something about, is the word here sacrifice? Like I've made sacrifices or I've accommodated and then been forgotten? Is that kind of a thought? Yeah. I think that's very accurate. Yeah. Would I use the word sacrifice or accommodations or I've made effort? I just want to get the right. Yeah, effort. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, you want spontaneous touch and affection. You've made efforts to invite his partners and then been forgotten. So the consequences are like, this is it. It's over. Or if I don't get these things, I'm not loved.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Now, I want you to have a look at this column. And I want you to have a look at these automatic thoughts and find one that really jumps out at you. And we're going to call that the hot thought. The hot thought is the one that's the most salient or the most prominent. It's the one that's driving a lot of the difficult feelings. I'm not

SPEAKER_01:

sure

SPEAKER_00:

he's as

SPEAKER_01:

committed as me. And... I've made efforts to invite partners and then forgotten.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, this one about I've made efforts to invite his partners and then been forgotten, I'm thinking. So that sounds like I'm just a bit conscientious about analyzing that because that could be a fact and I'm not sure. So do you think that falls into a category of unhelpful thinking? Yeah. Or do you think that's factual because that's behavior he needs to correct? It's not factual. It's not factual. Okay. So now the next column is about evaluating the hot thought. So the hot thought is I made efforts to invite his partner and then been forgotten. This means he's no longer committed to me. Right? So what is evidence that suggests that you've been forgotten? Well, he did kiss me. Yeah. He didn't kiss me. And there's differential treatment, right? Yes. Differential treatment. Were there other things besides the kiss?

SPEAKER_01:

Not having as much conversation with me as is typical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And is this your first or one of your longest conversations? relationships or is there a previous relationship where something similar happened that communicated the person was not no longer committed

SPEAKER_01:

so this is my second relationship um as also my longest um my first relationship was three years long and he ended up leaving me for for someone else i think like half a year after he had left me like he had had a conversation with me around kind of like he feeling threatened by me, like me achieving more intellectually. So I think like that commitment, not just because he left me for someone else, but because he was keeping his feelings hidden from me.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So this is good evidence. Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, the forgotten piece, like not being appreciated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So that is in terms of preparing the home.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Now let's switch over to the next column, which is evidence that does not support the hot thought.

SPEAKER_01:

So the first one is we plan beforehand, like before the arrival, like we do something special. And then after the partner leaves... we do something special again. So there's kind of like, there's already time made for us to connect.

SPEAKER_00:

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. If they go out, like being invited to go out with them, to go to dinner or the movies.

SPEAKER_00:

So prior to the morning kiss, had there already been an instance where they were going to go out somewhere and they invited you? Yes. Like before and after. Ah,

SPEAKER_01:

okay. There will still be like in the morning and at night, like my partner will send me like very, not extremely, but kind of like a sweet elaborated message of like how much I'm loved. Um, and kind of like that, um, they miss me sleeping next to them and that they would like to sleep with me again.

SPEAKER_00:

So from the other room, he's with the other partner and sending you lovely messages. Yeah. Okay. Jose, my darling, let's come up with some alternative thoughts. I've made efforts to invite his partners and then been forgotten. This means he's no longer committed to me. What's a good alternative? thought for you. And an alternative thought doesn't have to be a positive affirmation. It's just something that's a bit more balanced, right? And it speaks directly to your hot thought.

SPEAKER_01:

The first one that comes up for me is like, we just woke up. And? I haven't had my coffee, so everything is more like horrible. Yes.

UNKNOWN:

Um...

SPEAKER_01:

In my Puerto Rican brain, I would say, like, slow down on the ridiculousness.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm going to say, slow down and jump into conclusions. But I will put in brackets, the ridiculousness. Now, I wonder if there's another thought here that is connected to the past partner and the present partner. So the past partner... kept feelings hidden, but does the current partner do that? No, he does not. So I don't know. Is that a helpful reminder? Yeah. Okay. Now, part of your hot thought statement was I've made efforts to invite his partners and then been forgotten. And is there something about, you want to tell yourself about how you are appreciated or not? How other people might recognize your effort.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm going two different directions. Sure. Like one, like this is not about me. Like I'm not the guest. And then the second route is– which is something that I've started to do recently of kind of just like– texting, like, here's what I did today around the house. And that's been very helpful in kind of like, you know, getting that, oh, thank you, baby. I really appreciate all that you do around here. I love how you make my life easier. I think an alternative thought there could be like, if I'm not saying what I did, it's not going to get appreciated. Ah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think when you said, like, I'm not the guest, like, I think there's another part to that. I'm not the guest. In

SPEAKER_01:

Puerto Rico, being the guest, you get preferential treatment. You're basically treated like royalty because you are the guest. So when I say I'm not the guest, it's kind of like that reminder to myself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So I'm not the guest and the guest should get top treatment. Right. I love that. I love that. That's a cultural teaching because it comes into play here. So we've got several alternative thoughts and I'm curious about which one really speaks to you. I think the last

SPEAKER_01:

two.

SPEAKER_00:

And you'd pick two.

SPEAKER_01:

And my current partner keeps me updated and communicates changes and feelings regularly. OK,

SPEAKER_00:

so three, three alternative thoughts. Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm going to copy and paste the feelings here. back into this box. And I don't want you to worry at all about what your previous rating was. It doesn't matter to me if it goes up or down. It's all information, okay? But I want you to think about these new alternative thoughts. And let's go through when you're ready to re-rate some of these feelings. So what would crushed be? A three. A three. Okay. What about excluded?

SPEAKER_01:

There's no zero, right? It's one. It could be. One. Okay. Invisible. One.

SPEAKER_00:

Underappreciated. Six. Yeah. Don't let it go. Good. Because it's there. I want you to honor what's there. What about self-righteous? Four. Sadness.

SPEAKER_01:

One.

SPEAKER_00:

The stoicism, the martyrness.

SPEAKER_01:

A little bit. I would say like a dash of seasoning or two.

SPEAKER_00:

Inadequate. Five. Yeah. Replaced. One. And dread. One. All right. So here we are. Underappreciated, self-righteous, inadequate. Those things are still there. They come up for you. But Having to play this martyr stoic role, feeling crushed and excluded, invisible, the dread, which has a lot to do with, I think, the possibility of your life getting upended, him leaving you, all of that seems to have gotten very small. Are new feelings coming up in this moment?

SPEAKER_01:

When I think about the alternative thoughts, I don't know how to describe it. I don't know if it's jolly or like... Jolly's great. Yeah. Like it's, you know, it's like, there's a fun touch to like, to like this situation. Like, like, wow. Like I was ending my five-year relationship over a good morning kiss and now I'm laughing about it. Yeah. Great. Relief. Yeah. Is there too. And like, I can access my own agency.

SPEAKER_00:

Ah, yes. Yeah. So this is beautiful. Jose, you are not a CBT girl, usually, but I'm curious about your reflections on this process. What stands out to you, what you've learned about yourself, ways that might have been helpful?

SPEAKER_01:

I've been in therapy my whole life and my first few therapists would do CBT with me and it was not as enjoyable as this. And When I took the course, like this was more of a like step one, two, three, four. Like there was no, you know, I really liked how you would go back and kind of like connect things and bring out the story and not just staying with the thought there. I'm a little bit surprised.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's the CBT dive for today. Thank you for joining us as we demonstrate therapy skills for the real world. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on social media. The CBT Dive is intended for educational purposes only and not as a replacement for individual therapy. See you next time.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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