The CBT Dive

When your queerness feels constantly challenged

• Rahim Thawer, MSW • Season 2 • Episode 8

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Lindsay Wynn, founder and CEO of Momotaro Apotheca, shares her experience of feeling excluded and questioned about her bisexual identity at a gay bar. She explores the feelings of self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and sadness that arose from this encounter. Lindsay reflects on her journey of self-discovery and the challenges of navigating her sexual identity. As Rahim walks Lindsay through the Thought Record, Lindsay discusses her experiences and challenges as a bisexual woman and the fear of not being queer enough. Lindsay reflects on her own privilege and the importance of ongoing reflection and awareness. Overall, Lindsay emphasizes the need for empathy, understanding, and self-confidence in navigating these issues.

ABOUT THE CBT DIVE PODCAST
The CBT Dive is a video podcast that brings therapy skills to the real world. Each episode welcomes a new guest who wants to explore a challenging situation using the most common cognitive behavioural therapy tool: the thought record.

ABOUT HOST
Rahim Thawer is a queer, racialized social worker and psychotherapist based in Toronto. He's created The CBT Dive podcast to support folks who want to learn how to use a thought record and to demystify what therapy can look like.

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Rahim:

Welcome to the CBT Dive. This is the podcast that demystifies cognitive behavioral therapy. I'm psychotherapist and host Rahim Thawar. In each episode, I walk a guest through applying CBT skills to real world situations. Hi, Lindsay. How are you? Hi,

Lindsay:

Rahim. I'm great. Thank you. How are you?

Rahim:

I'm good. Lindsay, you and I met, you know, online through your work at Momotar Apotheca. And you had invited me to write for your blog. And then I was in New York last summer and did a workshop. And so I'm really glad we made that connection. I want to tell our viewers a little bit about you. Lindsay is the founder and CEO at Momotar Apotheca. Six years ago, she found herself looking back on a decade of work in the commercial beauty world as a photographer, feeling slightly unfulfilled. While she still had her passion for photography, Lindsay knew it was time for a change around this time. She was experiencing new and recurrent issues with conditions such as UTIs, yeast infections, and bacterial vaginosis. So some very personal things and challenging things. She grew exceedingly tired of the ineffective solutions on offer. She started to wonder, what are some natural, organic, and inclusive products in the feminine care industry? And then she did a fun thing. She turned her body into a vaginal wellness DIY project and teamed up with her partner, Taylor, who had a biology and sustainability background. They set out to make effective and inclusive products that could address the symptoms as well as the stigma associated with antiquated feminine care. Lindsay, today we're going to use a thought record to describe dive into an experience you had not too long ago when you were at a gay bar. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. So I've got several columns here and I filled out the first one. This is a situation when you're at a gay bar and a queer woman asks you, why are you here? And I'm guessing the implication here is she's assuming you are straight. Yes. Tell us a bit about that night and maybe a little background on... Who are you? What is your sexual identity? How do you present in the world? Do you get erased slash misread regularly?

Lindsay:

Yeah, so my background, generally speaking, I grew up in an extremely heteronormative community. I myself considered myself heterosexual. I think or was in massive denial now that I think and look back to it. Yes. I moved to New York at 18 and immediately started dating women and hooking up with women still in primarily heteronormative romantic relationships, but a lot of romantic sexual relationships.

Unknown:

Yeah.

Lindsay:

I can present very straight passing and I think I also can rock some really queer looks. But I think often people place me in a very straight place as I tend to present pretty femme. And yeah, like that only became hard for me once I really kind of attached myself to the queer community and felt incredibly affirmed. A couple years later, I ended up having my first romantic girlfriend for multiple years and realized how important those spaces were to me, to be affirmed and to truly feel myself. So now these years later, as I still present very similarly, being connected to the community is increasingly important as I continue to date across all genders.

Rahim:

Okay. And so set the stage for us. What bar were you at? What time of night was it? What day of the week?

Lindsay:

I was at a gay bar in San Diego. It was a big Mariah Carey Christmas show. It was so fun. I was dressed up super extra, but pretty femme, but like lots of glitter. Like we were, it was, it was probably midnight and it We were surrounded by a lot of people. I have a lot of community that, I even have a lot of queer men that are also straight passing in my life. I think that is maybe something that comes with being in San Diego as compared to my community that is in New York. And yeah, a random woman came up to me and asked me, why am I here? And it wasn't friendly. It wasn't like, hey, why are you here? It was like, why are you here? Or that's the way I took it.

Rahim:

Totally. What feelings came up for you initially? I imagine you were defensive.

Lindsay:

Definitely defensive. That is first and foremost. Anger passes very quick, and it brings me to a place where I'm kind of sad, right? I'm like, ugh, you're right. Why am I here? And so that feels like self-doubt.

Rahim:

Does it bring up shame, do you think, or embarrassment?

Lindsay:

I think shame, imposter syndrome, if those are related.

Rahim:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good list of feelings. Any other feelings? You have defensive, angry, sad, self-doubt, shame, imposter.

Lindsay:

Maybe frustration, definitely.

Rahim:

Yeah. Lindsay, let's go through and let's... rate the intensity of each of these feelings on a scale of one to 10. So 10 is like, it's pretty intense. One, not intense at all. How defensive were you? One to 10.

Lindsay:

I would say defensive is an eight. Anger is a four. Sadness is a four. Self-doubt is a seven. Shame is a seven. Seven. No, shame is a five. Imposter syndrome is a seven. Frustration is a seven.

Rahim:

Okay. Are there any other feelings that we might have missed in this column, like feeling righteous or...

Lindsay:

Righteous is an interesting one. Like, you know, I... you know, if righteous is connected to validity and my response going to, yes, I can be here.

Rahim:

Yeah. So righteous would be kind of level like five?

Lindsay:

Yeah, that sounds right.

Rahim:

Okay. Now we're talking about your reactions. What was your reaction? What did you do in that moment?

Lindsay:

I, you know, I turn around and ask the question, why? You know, what do you mean?

Speaker 01:

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay:

I think this is part of me trying to be level is I'm trying to understand why she's asking this before I jump to conclusions, before I get defensive. This is not the first time this has happened, whether it was about me or, as I mentioned, some of the maybe questioning queer friends I have. It was directly to me, so I tried to be level-headed. Why is she asking?

Rahim:

And I'm thinking here, you asked, well, why are you asking? But I don't know that you're being curious. I imagine you're being assertive, like you're challenging her a bit.

Lindsay:

Yeah, yeah. There's something about me, obviously, not answering that question in a straight line. way, though was she asking it in a straight way?

Rahim:

No, she wasn't.

Lindsay:

Yeah, like meant to be rhetorical, probably.

Rahim:

Yes. Okay.

Lindsay:

So I maybe was leading her where she was at a little bit.

Rahim:

Yeah, totally. You were matching her tone. Yeah. So, look, we could quickly go to a place where we would say the other person is in the wrong. And then we're not doing a thought record. We are doing problem solving, right? We're saying, here are my options. I can respond in option A, B, and C. And let's evaluate those options and then decide which way to move forward. But because we're doing a thought record, we are going to try to focus on the parts of you that that didn't feel so good. Because my assumption is that it activated parts of you that don't always feel good, that maybe you have questioned yourself or that have been difficult.

Lindsay:

100%.

Rahim:

So when we say you felt self-doubt, tell me a thought connected to the self-doubt.

Lindsay:

That I'm not queer enough. That I don't deserve to be there. that I am tokenizing a community that is not my own. I'm there for fun and it was a special night and I shouldn't be there because I am not that person.

Rahim:

Wow. And so that encapsulates, I think, self-doubt and imposter syndrome. Tell me about the sadness. What are the thoughts connected to sadness?

Lindsay:

I think it's because as someone who is bisexual, you're not straight enough and you're not gay enough is how that feels. And I, yeah, I don't want to have to consider, I don't want to have to, I don't want to feel that way, you know?

Rahim:

Yeah. And so in a sense, they're, Like, I imagine there's a question or thought around like, if this isn't my place, where is my place? Or I have no place to go.

Lindsay:

Yeah, totally. You don't see yourself reflected in the community or the community you thought you could be safe and is no longer safe.

Rahim:

I wonder if it took you to a headspace where you were thinking, well, if this is a recurring thing and I'm not going to fit in here, What does that mean for your future?

Lindsay:

Probably resorting to old, resorting to things that maybe don't affirm me.

Rahim:

Like?

Lindsay:

Not honoring my wants and needs. For me, like my intro to dating women was, or hooking up with women and being attracted to women was porn. And I would like watch, you know, a lot of like, you know, gay porn. And it was like, oh, this is it. This is, I'm good. But, you know, I would use alcohol to then be a conduit to doing these things in real life. And I would hopefully just chalk it up to that. You know, like I didn't, I didn't give myself the chance feel the way I felt.

Rahim:

When we think about like, I'm not queer enough or I don't deserve to be here. There's a part of me that thinks, well, maybe in the, like the consequence for the future is that I would have to go back to either drinking to be less aware of the exclusion or or I need to hide my sexuality?

Lindsay:

Yeah, I think it would be like numbing it down, trying to fit in into a community that I made a very clear, I literally moved 3000 miles away from.

Rahim:

Ah, where did you grow up that you moved away from?

Lindsay:

San Diego, which

Rahim:

is where I was. Oh, okay, that was your hometown, I see.

Lindsay:

So I was home visiting for the holidays and I think that's part of it in that, I was in a place that never felt affirming and I was seeking that and I've been trying to explore finding community there and not, you know, canceling an entire city, an entire park.

Rahim:

Yes. There's a thought here about like how far you've come and it's literally geographically, right? I've come really far for... acceptance. And I'm going to write in brackets, it's geographic and emotional distance. And I still can't count on it.

Lindsay:

Yeah.

Rahim:

Okay. We've got a slew of automatic thoughts. And what I usually do with the automatic thoughts is I ask follow-up questions to try to distill them a bit more. And the way I ask follow-up is like, if this particular statement is true, what does that say about you? What does it say about other people? What could it mean for the future? If this were to continue, what would the consequence be? So here are the automatic thoughts and the further thoughts that we've distilled. So I'm not queer enough, I don't deserve to be here. I'll need to numb myself to fit in or to not be bothered. I don't have a place to go. Queer places don't necessarily feel safe for me. So, Lindsay, have a look at some of these automatic thoughts. And I want us to identify one that feels most salient or prominent that's driving some of the difficult feelings you're having. I

Lindsay:

actually think the one that elicits the strongest reaction is that I'm tokenizing a community that's not my own. And I think it's because of, one, it connects very much to the work that I do. I am... constantly trying to create safe spaces for folks within my work at Momotaro Apotheca, being that we don't use gendered language, all of these things. It's literally the work, like right now at this point, like my life's work. And our internal bias and our privilege and stuff all play into how I act at work and the things we do.

Speaker 01:

And

Lindsay:

I'd like to think I carry those things through. I do carry those things into my personal life, but this one is particularly hard because it feels connected to my existence, right? Like just by my existence,

Speaker 01:

I

Lindsay:

am potentially not enough and making people around me feel like shit.

Rahim:

So Thank you for sharing that. You've almost jumped to one of the last columns, which is about alternative thoughts. I want us to hang on to that because I think there's some really profound things that are going to come out. I want us to take the statement, so I'm tokenizing a community that's not my own. I'm just like the people I experience violence from. And I want us to just evaluate that for a moment. So That thought didn't come from nowhere, right? And so first I want to ask, what evidence do you have in your own life that supports that idea, that you are tokenizing, or that you are just like the people you experience violence from? And this could be in a small way, it could be in a symbolic way, it could be technical.

Lindsay:

Yeah, like I dress pretty femme when I'm out with, if I'm out with like a cis woman, you know, heterosexual man, like, we don't, we receive very different treatment than I do if I was out, say, with my, like, ex-girlfriend, you know?

Rahim:

Okay, yeah, that's a great example. Any other pieces of evidence?

Lindsay:

You know, I know that I receive, I have some privilege in that, like, I can fade into the background if I need to. And that's, you know.

Rahim:

Okay. I'm going to move us to the next column. These are pieces of evidence that don't support your hot thought, the prominent salient thought. So this is evidence that you're not tokenizing a community that's not your own or that this community is in fact your own. So help me with evidence that suggests the opposite of the automatic thoughts that we bolded.

Lindsay:

I mean, those feel objective, right? You know, I was in a relationship for three years with a woman. It's the longest romantic relationship I've ever had in my life.

Rahim:

Yeah. I mean, you seem to have alluded to like a kind of awareness. Like you're saying, I'm not subjected to the same kind of violence other people in the community might be. I think that awareness alone makes it difficult to tokenize, doesn't it?

Lindsay:

You would hope so.

Rahim:

So I'm going to say evidence that doesn't support the hot thought would be like I invest in ongoing reflection and awareness about my queer community. Does that fit?

Lindsay:

Yeah, sure.

Rahim:

All right, Lindsay. We're at the second last column and this one is the alternative thought. So we're really speaking to your self-doubt here and we're speaking to you in an affirming way and in a balanced way, right? So when you think I'm just, there's a moment where you say, I'm just like the people I experienced violence from, what's your alternative, especially in this context across from this woman?

Lindsay:

For me, I want to approach the situation with gentleness, right? I understand how this person could be viewing someone who could seem heteronormative and perceive violence there. It is important for me to kind of like debunk that with thoughtfulness rather than aggression. So even defensiveness doesn't feel like the right path all the time. Yeah,

Rahim:

I can appreciate the other person's concerns. So I want to be less defensive, but I think you're saying, you know, from what I heard earlier, but I also want to stand my ground.

Lindsay:

Yeah. I, yeah. I mean, I think it's important just because of my own journey into this space that, you know, it makes me think about gatekeeping, you know, in a bit, a bit, right. Like, especially with, you know, the queer men in my life who didn't come out till later or are still investigating their sexuality and or expression, I know that the gatekeeping is such a big piece for them.

Rahim:

Yes. Yes. Something else you talked about earlier, which was about your job and the kind of work you do and the safe spaces you create. That seems like that's very much a context you created because you personally experienced an unmet need or an unmet, yeah, an unmet need. And while your workplace then becomes like this haven of safety, I think you were reminded that that kind of psychological safety isn't available everywhere you go. No.

Lindsay:

And it's, you know, with Momotaro and the work we do, like, It's in everyday things, it's in the language we use. Momotaro doesn't use gendered language because your vagina does not have to be feminine. Those create barriers to entry to very affirming, sometimes medical needs to emotional needs. and i think yeah i mean i think that stuff is very important

Rahim:

so i'm thinking an alternative thought here would be you know this woman is asking you this question you have a rush of self-doubt imposter syndrome frustration and you you're reminding yourself just because i challenge norms in my daily work um that doesn't mean um i am

Lindsay:

that person I think there's a lot of self-doubt connected to, or not self-doubt, but a lot of shame connected to my upbringing. And I think people that look like me can be incredibly fucking violent. And, you know, like the blonde-haired, blue-eyed, like, just, yeah, like the community I grew up with, it was incredibly violent and hateful. And... And I, yeah, I mean, I carry a lot of that with me in terms of not feeling, there's like a lot of inferiority complex attached to that. We're kind of like going off on a tangent.

Rahim:

No, no, no, no. It's useful because I think this is a big part of your identity and that got activated in this moment. And it's connected to childhood and where you grew up and where you moved. And when I think about a balanced thought here, what makes a balance is saying people who look like me can be harmful. And I've experienced that is what you're saying. Yeah.

Lindsay:

And maybe my fear is that somewhere deep down, I am just like them.

Rahim:

Yeah. And that is something you put in the alternative, sorry, what you put in the automatic thought, right? I could be just like the people I experienced violence from. So what's a balanced thing to tell yourself here around how you use power, how you're going to connect with this individual, how you engage with others? I'm thinking about something that reassures you in that way.

Lindsay:

It reassures me that because you know this isn't new this isn't experimental for me it's funny I don't use the work like the work with Momotaro as as necessarily a marker of my goodwill towards the queer community because I mean that's connected to capitalism and why I feel like Can't be valid again. Another piece.

Rahim:

Okay. So I've got a couple of things here. Let's start from the top. So I can appreciate the other person's concerns. So I want to be less defensive, but I also want to stand my ground. Just because I challenge norms in my daily work, that doesn't mean people see that about me. Now, this next one I pieced together from stuff you were saying, but let me know if it's not accurate. People who look like me can be harmful. I've experienced that. But I have practiced with reassuring other queer people and myself about who I really am. And the last one was, I get affirmation from Momotaro, but I might not get that in other places. Do these feel helpful alternative thoughts?

Lindsay:

Yes. And they also connect to like deeper wormholes, right? Like I think about the last one and it connects me to some toxicity within the queer community. I'm like, you know.

Rahim:

The queer community can also be a source of toxicity.

Lindsay:

Yes. So I shouldn't expect that like, yeah, this one, that every person there is going to be this like shiny, happy rainbow flag, which we know is not real.

Rahim:

Yeah, so I can't expect all queers to be great.

Lindsay:

To be nice.

Rahim:

And all straights to be bad.

Lindsay:

Yes.

Rahim:

Okay, so my question here, my next question is, which of these alternative thoughts really speak to you?

Lindsay:

i think the first one is huge right like i get it you know i get being defensive and i get uh you know we all have internal bias we stereotype people you know if i'm making out with what looks like a straight man in a queer bar or something like i understand like and but also like i you know i am i am going to stand my ground and i think that's important to help people have a more expansive perspective

Rahim:

Absolutely. So we've got this great list of alternative and more balanced thoughts, and you really like the first one. I can appreciate the other person's concerns, so I want to be less defensive, but I also want to stand my ground. I'm wanting to re-rate the feelings that we had before to see if they're still there, if they've gone up in intensity or gone down in intensity. So let's try imposter syndrome. Where's that at when you think about your alternative thought?

Lindsay:

Let's go with the three.

Rahim:

Okay, what about frustration?

Lindsay:

Also probably a three.

Rahim:

Righteousness?

Lindsay:

It feels like the wrong word now. It might. Yeah, like righteousness doesn't feel...

Rahim:

What does it change to? I

Lindsay:

just feel like it would feel... I just feel like maybe it goes to confidence, right? Like self-confidence, right?

Rahim:

Yeah, that's good. So righteousness has been converted into self-confidence. And I think there's a kind of groundedness to like a preparation to connect or preparation for a conversation.

Lindsay:

Yeah, groundedness feels much more accurate.

Rahim:

Okay. How would you rate the shame?

Unknown:

Okay.

Lindsay:

Again, I feel like that feeling doesn't arise anymore.

Rahim:

I'm going to give it a one then. And what about self-doubt?

Lindsay:

Yeah, I think it would be like a one or a two.

Rahim:

Sadness. I wonder if this has stayed the same or gone up even. I

Lindsay:

think I would say it would stay the same, right?

Rahim:

Yeah. And is the anger still there or has the anger morphed into something else?

Lindsay:

I think that anger and frustration live together, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're just like, it's, it's more like an annoyance now. You're like,

Rahim:

why

Lindsay:

are we still here? Why are we still talking about this? Why is this an

Rahim:

issue? Yes. I like that. So the anger is morphed into like irritation and it's connected to frustration. And the defensiveness I'm hearing you, it's hard to put a number too. So I'll just leave it. I'm looking at your thought record and like a number of thoughts are coming up for me in terms of like your experience, but also the alternative thoughts. So many of the alternative thoughts speak to me personally too when I think about relative power, where we fit in, where we don't fit in. And I'm curious to know from you, what has this process been like? And has it helped you gain insight around the connection between thoughts and feelings?

Lindsay:

Yeah, I think it's a really nice process. We are so used to... automatic response and expectation and stereotype.

Rahim:

All in all, Lindsay, I want to thank you so much. Thank you. And that's the CBT dive for today. Thank you for joining us as we demonstrate therapy skills for the real world. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on social media. The CBT Dive is intended for educational purposes only and not as a replacement for individual therapy. See you next time.

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Rahim Thawer, MSW

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